New Map: -=:ToB:=- Paying Sins. Coments + Discussions :)

[DarkProject]

OKAY the first public release it out of my map -=:ToB:=-Paying Sins!

Known errors: room under kitchen trapdoor has a bsp error that gets the screen blury..just look at the floor (doesn't afect gameplay since it's a rarely used area).

To avoid lag: SO far the only lag people experienced was when they walked out of the thief spawn building, or opened teh windows there. It will lag for a moment then die down. Anyway best way to avoid it is: to exit thief spawn use the bottom door (stairs). And in front of the rat maze area and rat arena if you look at the mansion you will get high polys. Otherwise once you get in the mansion/over the wall you should be fine!

Tips: seems like there is only way in? NO! there are soo many ways in..about 12..bu most require a vine arrow..or lockpicks.
Buy lockpicks!!! and a few vine arrows (very very many more places you can go with these)
Read the scrolls..they give you tips, hidden item locations, story, fun, and can reviel some of the secret areas ;);).
Learnt he layout (very easy i think)
There are manys ecret areas..some doors don't open and can't open..well that means there is a secret!!!! look around and you may find a switch near the door somewhere (always somewhere near the dor) Explore the town..there are some places that look like nothing, but really are something..check the windows ;) ;)
Don't be a dumbass <--you'll know what i mean..many of my beta testers oviously are.
The square like big pictures..look kindda cheap hu?? maybe there is more to them ;)..look around near them.....

Anyway please post flames, comments, suggestions, and whatever else you want about the map here. I hope you guys & gals have fun. I know i sure didn't making it (damn bsp's!!!)

And if you have a slow pc that really lags on this map..well what can i tell you..sorry but you're shit out of luck, try lower details/ resolution.

ALSO try to remember..this is the first map i EVER made using UED 2.0 (i made a ut2003 map before but that's it). So no i'm no great mapper...don't make fun of me!! damn it stp!!! :P..but really..giveit a try. i suggest you play with as many people as you can get....i had people say it's a big map

:stabbed:

HAVE FUN!

btw...i had to take teh following things out to make lag better:
1. all the rats that follow you..except one ;)
2. all drunk guards
3. LR, Grank, broken arts, fri..drunk (fri was sleeping with lr on bed while grank and BA were on floor with beer bottles lying face down..all snoring adn LR occasinally laughing (laugh is still in the map :erg: ) .....ermm it was in a secret area.
4. and all the rabbits,
5. my damn trees..i had a freakinf orest..now a dumb lawn
6. street lights and much detail and meshes...

Many hours deleted there just so you guys and gals can have a better frame rate
:?

HAVE FUN NOW!

[DarkProject]

oops.. link is at www.tearsofblood.com

and i posted in general...i'm a dumbass :( can't get used to this forum!!! :bj:

[DhaThief]

5megs wow i'm gonna dl all night :thumb: (damn 56K...hehe)
I have seen the pics and it was looking good, keep those maps comming !

[KewlAzMe]

OK... level looks great... but Framerate is Crazy!! 32MB vid card at the lowest settings in single player mode and I couldn't play more than 5 mins without turning it off. Thats gonna be a big issue for people with low mem vid cards.

In that 5 min I found:

Bug 1: Torches in front door of mansion are too high for AI to relight.. they constantly try and stand under them.. but never get them re-lit.

Bug 2: Not really a bug, just something I noticed: You say in the post above this that you took all the drunken guards out. (Well that would be one thing I'd rather see left in and take something else out... but If you must then thats fine).. but you have to change the First Scroll on the table in Thief spawn to not say "The guards will act drunk" since they wont be anymore.

I like the Growling sounds... is that just a sound or is there a Burrick up there somewhere?

Nice Guard names

[MrEricSir]

Wow, that's one LARGE map. It's an awesome map, don't get me wrong, but the sheer size of it may make online play difficult.

One problem: there are a bunch of holes in the textures. I'm not talking about BSP problems, I mean actually HOLES. It makes the walls look extremely two dimensional, because I can see right through various walls that are obviously not thick enough to be real walls.

[Dalai]

Just had a round as a guard on this map, was good fun. Looks good, nice layout, some fun secrets and lots of opportunity for the guards to shoot out of the windows to the thieves below.

Can't tell you any thief team impressions as Shadowrodent and Sneaksy picked thieves again the next round, so it was all thieves, no guards. I quit the server. :roll:

Yes, the framerate is dodgy, but didn't hurt the game too much. ;)

[Salvage]

How about putting a kill zone at the bottom of where you're a dumbass.

[DarkProject]

if i left the drunk sin the fame rate would be 4 instead out 25ish..no joke

and yes that is a texture problem...i saw it in flats also, and some other maps..it's weird..anyway..here's a shot of what you should try NOT to go :P

a good guard at work (paranoid guard but good)..yet kindda cheap:

http://www.tearsofblood.com/screenshots/evildalai.JPG

:guard:

[DarkProject]

How about putting a kill zone at the bottom of where you're a dumbass.

oh boy...everyone jumps...why..i specificaly said DO NOT JUMP!!! anyway u can use the suicide sommand :P...before i had it a bottomless well..i had a teleporter teleport you up so you keep falling :P

[DarkProject]

...waiting for Nachimir's post... :angel: :cool:

[Yenzarill]

Very nice DP. A few BSP holes (most of which i am sure you are aware.) :thumb:

Framerate can still be little chunky outdoors... :stabbed: ...but not too bad.

Love all the secrets and stuff... *Grrrrvvvoooooooooooommmm* :ebil:

[FixXxeR]

:grin: great map, huge in size, in fact i played it for 10 mins and i only had 2500 loot, and yer need 5000!

will take a while to do online, but i feel that the gem on the map may turn out to be another korman flashback of major gem guardig :sweat:

but i loove it, 1 problem tho, why so many notes?, it would take all day to read them all! :lol:

[DarkProject]

:grin: great map, huge in size, in fact i played it for 10 mins and i only had 2500 loot, and yer need 5000!

will take a while to do online, but i feel that the gem on the map may turn out to be another korman flashback of major gem guardig :sweat:

but i loove it, 1 problem tho, why so many notes?, it would take all day to read them all! :lol:

why not!!!....also you can grab the ruby very quickly if you know the map well enough...you can win within 4 min (i did :D)

[KewlAzMe]

The notes are fine. I mean they are there for newbies. once you read them once or twice .. you have no reason to read them again so leave them alone.
Framerate is still killing me though. Especially in the front yard. Time to look on ebay for a new vidcard.

[[E.D.G]Chief]

DP pls make ur map more rubbish it's out shining every other map-Thanks :grin: other than the fps in places and finding the stone :roll: nice map- btw why does the read me file say made with UEd 3? i mean ut is ued2 so is it possible to use ued3 to make thievery maps :eek:

[DarkProject]

Chief]DP pls make ur map more rubbish it's out shining every other map-Thanks :grin: other than the fps in places and finding the stone :roll: nice map- btw why does the read me file say made with UEd 3? i mean ut is ued2 so is it possible to use ued3 to make thievery maps :eek:

oops..i used the read me file i had froma map i made for ut2003 :lol: :cool:

[DarkProject]

what should i fix/ implament? some doors need to be locked/ unlocked? some ladders? less lights?

things to keep in mind:
1. I will not make the map smaller/bigger...although i may add a few more secrets O_O (there are enough not to add more though)2. Don't say raise fps outside...i already know this and i will try and work on it..although i won't say anything...i mean i will try but i won't try for too long. so most likley the lag will get better or stay the same...it won't get worse.. and it seems my rat maze is very dark (dumb ambient brightness was reset somehow) i'll fix that too...


PS: Thwark is the master of the maze so far :wink: :ninja:

[Mr.K.]

One thing i REALLY hate in maps is seeing the world boundaries. I got archery and paying sins and i must say it totally draws you off from the feeling of being there when you climb up a roof, look to the side and see the black ground of the end of the world.
Also, if you climb to the highest roof and go all the way walking over it to the edge of the map closer to the wheel and drop down there taking a catfall you can't get out of the bit where you land, even though from upside it just looks like normal streets.

I climbed to the big wood lamp in the second floor and there were corpses stuck to the ceiling there, probably from KO's i made in the third floor?

Some other things i don't remember now. Haven't played a lot with it (only two games to be exact).

[DarkProject]

yes..those are guards you KOed..and i have no clue why that happened... also i am nt sure where you are talking about jumping and getting stuck...if you mean behind the buildings or the walls <--you shouldn't go there

[Mr.K.]

It's a bit of street that is behind a wall. You can't properly measure how tall the wall is from above. Plus, it has two big metal crates and you'd think you can mantle them up to the wheel square, but no. That reminds me of something else: check that all of the food items can be picked, i think i spotted some that couldn't. Also, in the bar (not the restaurant but the bar) there's a stack of silver coins in the inside of the bar corner, right behind a round chair. Take the chair away, it's in the middle of the way and makes it too difficult to pick them up for their value.

As for "you shouldn't go there", i am of the idea that a map shouldn't let you go anywhere you shouldn't be.

Oh, and the guard names. Really, they aren't needed. (Or maybe it's me, i like the maps having a dark and medieval feeling). The music in the restaurant is sort of funny, doesn't go too well with the rest of the level.

[DarkProject]

i don't know what wheel you're talking about but i'll try next patch to block all areas off.... and the names.... maybe i'll change them :P.... isn't Mike Roch medieval enough for you :P

and also..i will leave in that one place. that people enjoy jumping into.... *cough even when i wrote DO NOT JUMP IN! ;) ;) ;)...people love breaking rules...so this is where they pay fo them >:)

[DarkProject]

tx mr. k..... maybe i'm asking for a lot too fast but remember...the faster i get your opinions the faster i can start working on a patch/next version.

so far mr.k posted his findings...anyone else?

i really need all your help to make the map better... hell..if it wasn't for my beta testers..you guys would be crashing into invisible walls and trying to get into rooms that are force fielded. :P takes more than 1 man to make a good map ;)

[KewlAzMe]

Mr K hates seeing the end of a level.. but lets face it.. u would have to build sky high brick walls to avoid it. when you start taking vines and climbing roofs then you are bound to see some stuff cuz u are veering from the main course. Its at least better than the problem on bafford's level where u see the street and it looks like it turns the corner, but there is an invisible wall stopping you. thats annoying. We all know the levels end at some point.. so keep Frame rate down by just ending it and not adding covering over the end of the earth. more objects, more lag.

Also.. in the club type room.. there is a breakable green bottle on each table. The more you break.. the better the lag is. perhaps removing some of these minor items may help the overall lag. Including in the kitchen, a few less pans, fruits, etc. maybe a crate or two and some barrels. just an idea. what about a few less leaves on the trees outside to fix a little lag.

[DhaThief]

WOOT map !!!
WOW, big, well design, nice texture, great looking, etc...
The only thing I have to say : it is HUGE!!! 30min in solo is not too much at first... and if you die LOL just hope you don't have 100% drop loot :lol:
But i like it alot and all the littles secrets hehe LR bite me :)
I was suprise you did not take the tear of blood from the korman map you know it look like one red drop of blood...hummm anyway that ruby is still fine by me. :wink:

I think it have been said but, the bigest bug I found is that you use the transparency color in your normal texture....So when you are outside you can see trough some wall at some very pin point places on the texture (where the color of the texture is pure black). It may seems not important, but is maybe WHY the fps are low outside.... :erg: (the engine have to render more stuff at once because of that transparency). But in general it didn't lag too much in solo mode on my machine... should be playable online with no problems.

And what is up with that pub...not loot there...if you think i'm gonna put my hand down there again for no loot...lol (but i know why you did not put loot there... outside the main part of the map...ok).

ok smell you later animal lover ...hehe :thumb:

* going back to find bug, and finish the map without *god*/*fly* enable :sweat:

[KewlAzMe]

Lol Dhathief... are you sure there is nothing in the Pub?? Better check again.. very very carefully. Believe me.. its worth putting your hand back in there for what u will receive.. if you are good.

[[E.D.G]Chief]

Oh yes forgot to mention- why does LR sound like some psycho parrot? One redeemer sorted him out tho :grin: and the music for the stage-I know it's in the tut music but euwwwww if I hear it again I'll have to scream it's horrible :cool: maybe ur decoration ladders could be climbable, also a basic map would be good of how to get to the stone :P One other thing I noticed was that the guard on the front steps was glowing red as tho you'd stuck a light to him and was making his shadow etc red-very strange :) I think LR should go eek! when he gets squished :grin:

[Mr.K.]

The "end of the world" can and should be hidden in every level in every single computer game. It utterly destroys the ambience. In flats, for example, you are all the time high above the ground and you can't see it. The only official map you can see it is Nostalgia, if i recall right, and to do that you need to climb to jump with a speed potion from the top of the library, which is a reasonably unlikely thing to do (well, it'd be if it wasn't so easy to exploit to go outside the manor). I haven't thought what could be done hide the en of the world in this mission, but it definitively should be something to look forward, because it's not diffiuclt at all to see it. Same goes with Archery. (Someone fix the food in that map, please. I hate being able to pick up only half of the stuff, it feels totally awkward).

Also, my apologies to DarkProject, i typed wheel and i meant WELL. The one that you jump into. :P Go to the well, look towards the mansion wall and walk until you hit it. Then turn right and go walk until you hit the next wall/house. There's a bit of street over that wall that is accessible from dropping from the roof yet you cannot go out.

Also, i haven't checked, but is it possible to leave the mansion wihotut using inventory items? (catfalls/ vines). If not, you should make at least 1 exit that you could use when you have exhausted your resources. Anyways i guess there is at least one.

For the names, i'm meaning the "funnyness". It may be possible that someone smiles when they read in the guard list "Homer Sexual", but the novelty soon draws off and to me it just doesn't feel right seeing those names all around in an otherwise moody level. Again, my personal taste, it's YOUR map, i'm telling you what i'd ask from an official map.

[Yenzarill]

:eek: I can see your point... The names and all the Easter Eggs can detract from the game somewhat.

[LaughingRat]

The "edge of the world" can bee seen in a number of "official" maps other than just Nostalgia. Korman comes to mind immediately, with the entire exit area having an edge of the world effect. Theatre has it as well, and so does Grange in some places, and Flats has some unusual effects in barred off alleys. All these places are reachable from ingame, without cheatcodes.

[DarkProject]

i'm no pro maper yet, so i can't really fix the end of the world thing really, it won't work for this map unless i put a brick wall on the roofs :roll: ..now the food you can't pickup because you probably have too many. i will try and take some of those bottoles and crates out and see if it helps. there ARE many ways to get into the mansion (about 8 ) and there are abour 4 ways to get out even if you don't have inventory items ;)...just look more crfully. 2 ways out from the servant quarters, there is the kitchen, front door, some others ;). i will chnage the texture on the wall to try and fix that weird see through bug.. also i'll change the names and stuff ;), make it mor eprofessional. oh and dha thief....once you know where to go and the layout you can win it fast...i won it in 4 min in solo ;) with no cheats

[DarkProject]

The "edge of the world" can bee seen in a number of "official" maps other than just Nostalgia. Korman comes to mind immediately, with the entire exit area having an edge of the world effect. Theatre has it as well, and so does Grange in some places, and Flats has some unusual effects in barred off alleys. All these places are reachable from ingame, without cheatcodes.

also gerome ;)

[Aggamemnon]

The "see through" bug is a setting in th .ini file im sure (it was posted about some time ago) play aquatone or nostalgia and in the vents you sometimes see through tha dark holes (dont look like holes on one setting) and on the balcony in nostalgia if it is black not see through the setting is wrong... pretty sure thats it just i cant find the fix.... if anyone has it they should post it please :thumb:

[LaughingRat]

Chief]Oh yes forgot to mention- why does LR sound like some psycho parrot?

I'm going to assume you mean in the map....

also gerome ;)

Good point. The others just leaped immediately to mind.

[[E.D.G]Chief]

I'm going to assume you mean in the map....

no all the time :P [/quote]

[Occam]

Cowboy Bebop rules.

[Ghostly apparition]

Chief]I'm going to assume you mean in the map....

no all the time :P [/quote]

yeah actually this is exactly what Laughing Rat sounds like
LMAO :joking:

[Aggamemnon]

Whats funny is that his avatar is of spike from CB and his sig is from Trigun

[LaughingRat]

Whats funny is that his avatar is of spike from CB and his sig is from Trigun

What, mine?

[Arrowgrab]

Wow, that map gets a 'way cool' rating from me! There's one thing I missed: it would have been fun to hide a dr. Peppers can or something similar behind/between/near the two moons. Yes, I've checked. :grin:

[DarkProject]

1. there are 14 dr. pepper cans in the map
2. he was talking about my avatar and sig ;)....
3. funny how bebop nor trigun are my fav animes :lol:

oh and in my map there is a quote: "God's in heaven all's righht with the world" ..which is from something else :P
i will be cahnging my avatar about at least 2 times a month

[DhaThief]

I was suprise you did not take the tear of blood from the korman map you know it look like one red drop of blood...hummm anyway that ruby is still fine by me. :wink:

LOL stupid stupid me... not korman but theatre ....anyway.

[Nachimir]

OK, I finally got time to go through it tonight.

The main thing causing lag in your map is the number of guards. Suffice to say I just don't have the processing power to deal with that much AI. Once I'd deleted all the guards but one and saved a test version, I went back to test the build. Also, I hate the guard names, and think puns in general are absolutely frigging AWFUL.

The fountain room superstructure that projects outward from the mansion over the town looks utterly surreal, and also as if it's about to fall down; it's not supported by anything except at each end. Occlusion times were high here, I would have just got rid of it altogether. Also, one window is openable, but the other is not.

In the town area, wood textures on diagonal supports are misaligned: wood grain always runs the length of timber, never across (Unless you employ a sawmill full of really stupid people, then stupid carpenters ;))

Loot was everywhere. Regardless of a high goal making it harder, the loot seemed far too easy to come by. People don't tend to leave bags of coins in kitchens and beside the toilet, but the odd ring left in a bathroom is feasible. Having loot absolutely everywhere makes robbing it seem more like a chore. I'd suggest lower counts and objectives in future.

I liked the notes everywhere, but the mapper jokes started to wear a bit thin. The first one about FPS outside made me chuckle, but I think too many in jokes intrude on the theme of a map.

As someone already said, the music near the stage is just not thiefish at all. I think your music changes were too frequent, which is quite jarring when playing. I prefer more generally apportioned music, for example one song inside the main interior, one in all basements, etc.

Occlusion times were okay, though in a few places they rose:
Stage (circa 20)
http://www.planetunreal.com/fragadelic/nachimir/thievery/payback/stage.jpg
Gramophone makes loot noise when frobbed?

Atriums (circa 30)
http://www.planetunreal.com/fragadelic/nachimir/thievery/payback/atriums.jpg

Outside;
The zoning on the outside is bad, large portals are a major cause of lag, and also complex areas should be in their own zone when possible. Namely the rat maze, which at the moment is a part of the town zone. Also, f you merged the polys on the two rat maze brushes it would marginally boost performance. I think the rat maze could be fun, but I couldn't see a thing in there.

The easteregg with the chainsaw, granted, is hard to get to, but I'd take it out. Rats can pick up the chainsaw if it's dropped, and they can use it too, meaning a rat could finish a game one way or the other.

You seem to have three duplicate zoneinfos in the town area, I didn't check everywhere else. If you ever lose one, instead of adding another, select one, then all thieveryzoneinfo, then put the drawscale right up. Having multiple infos for one zone is bad. I haven't done many experiments, but as far as I've seen one info will assume dominance and apply its settings, and you can be tweaking another and wondering why it's having no effect.

Another issue outdoors is the high ceiling (like with sword arena). Large ceiling heights will degrade performance. I know you can go up the beams on to the roof (Again, the textures on these beams are misaligned), but you have to map within limits. There are certain things that the UT engine (and the systems it was designed to run on) just can't handle.

One of the first things I had to get rid of with an early version of Breandor was the opportunity to get onto the roof; the only map I've seen get away with roof access and a decent amount of detail is Flats, and that's because it's occluded and zoned well.

Some door pivots were badly set up, like in this sceenshot:
http://www.planetunreal.com/fragadelic/nachimir/thievery/payback/doorpivot.jpg
I think the best compromise, rather than using a corner, is to make a brush with the pivot point halfway across a narrow side.

The laughing rat was just twee, and the repetitive sound effect got annoying fast. I found I couldn't even kill it either (It took about 8 broadheads and a good few mace hits before I gave up. No offense meant to the real LR...).

In the library, these yellow torches are giving off blue light, which looks very wrong:
http://www.planetunreal.com/fragadelic/nachimir/thievery/payback/bluelight.jpg
Light sources and colours should match as closely as possible, if they're too different it will just look downright odd (and "impossible").

I noticed some of your coronas were misaligned too, appearing to float a little way below their sources:
http://www.planetunreal.com/fragadelic/nachimir/thievery/payback/corona.jpg
It's worth carefully aligning them in UED. If you're dealing with large light actors, scale them down temporarily so you can pinpoint them in the centre of the light, and just a small way away from the surface if the source is a texture (i.e. less than 0.5uu).

The fire here uses multiple flames which makes is susceptible the the multiple relight bug:
http://www.planetunreal.com/fragadelic/nachimir/thievery/payback/firebug.jpg
I don't know of a decent way round this yet, but I'm working on it ;) also, there's so much light you can see in this shot that it becomes washed out. This is known as "greening", and happens when brightness values (combined or otherwise) go above 220. If you visit DavidM's site (http://www.planetunreal.com/teamvortex/davidm/) and find his lighting tutorials they'll tell you all about this and a whold lot more. I think those tut's are essential reference for UT lighting too.

Another example of odd texturing:
http://www.planetunreal.com/fragadelic/nachimir/thievery/payback/texture.jpg
It looks very odd with the wood border missing at the top. Fiddling repeatedly with texture scale properties in UED may seem laborious, but it's worth it to make everything look its best.

Dynamic lighting is plentiful, which I think also degrades performance. I'd advise using fewer torches, each with a slightly larger radius in future (But then again, my computer is rubbish). Also, the zonelight was so low (3) I was struggling to see in some areas, and had to feel around for stuff (Like crates stacked against the wall. However, my monitor is getting a bit old so doesn't do contrast so well).

The lighting by the pool in the west is very badly defined, I was on pitch black ground but even crouched my visibility was still 69%. Occlusion times in the house by the pool were reaching 30 also, I don't bother with transparent windows.

The skybox is pretty awful. The clouds move way too fast (Zoneinfo > zonelight > texture pan speeds), and you can see the edge of them. Remember, when the game shows a skybox it draws the player view from the skyzoneinfo at all times, so careful positioning of elements and a lot of time put into lighting can make a skybox in which you can't see the edges. It may seem like a really simple thing, but getting a skybox to look good takes a lot of repeated efforts and tweaking. Otherwise it will probably look like shit.


Other than that, a good first attempt at a proper map.

[Chainsaws]

Lol Dhathief... are you sure there is nothing in the Pub?? Better check again.. very very carefully. Believe me.. its worth putting your hand back in there for what u will receive.. if you are good.

yeah, but can you get it without cheating? :P

[MrEricSir]

The only official map you can see it is Nostalgia, if i recall right, and to do that you need to climb to jump with a speed potion from the top of the library, which is a reasonably unlikely thing to do (well, it'd be if it wasn't so easy to exploit to go outside the manor).
No, you can see the edge of the world in Nostalgia by using a vine arrow.

Here are some other maps with that problem:
Theatre: you can get stuck on the edge
Breakout: Climb around the balcony exit, you'll see the edge.
Korman: The exit (already been mentioned)

[KewlAzMe]

yeah, but can you get it without cheating?

How do u get it with cheating? I buy 5 catfalls and 5 vines and lockpicks, then get the keys, use catfall to jump down hole, use vine to go up, then down, then up and u got it. gettin back is hard.

----

Nachimir totally ripped DP a new with that post.. not in a bad way.. in a constructive way. I mean the wood grain and everything.. lol Nice work Nachimir.. tell that DP guy to learn what he's doin! heh

Its Still fun DP... and i think u should leave the EasterEgg or make it a **big thing that clears everyone out in UT**! heh. Clear the guards out and fix the Framerate with one click! heh You could yell at Nachimir for giving away the Easter Egg and not using a spoiler cover. But you could also yell at Dalai for using this crappy BB program instead of vBulletin. No SPOILER Button!

----

[Nachimir]

Sorry, I didn't realise we had spoiler tags...

I really don't want to discourage anyone from mapping, I think criticism is vital. You'll all get your turn to tell me I'm crap :)

[Thwark]

the spoiler tag was a hack for VB anyway, not a standard item.

and in my opinion, it sucked ass. especially in a game like thievery, where spoilers are completely useless.

[SiLeNt_NiGhT]

Appreciate the detailed, thorough effort you put into that review, Nachimir! There's alot there that's going to help in my efforts too.
Can't wait till its my turn! (Shit, I'd love to give it to you now but it's only bout 65-70% done. - and I don't want to spoil the surprise a finished(?) map can bring.) :thumb:

[KewlAzMe]

Spoiler hack is really Highlight button.. but all the same Silent Night just made another reference to a surprise. Spoiler covers are necessary

[[E.D.G]Chief]

You'll all get your turn to tell me I'm crap

Brilliant!!! I've been wanting to get my own back for ages :joking:

I notice alot of what you said here was what you said for my map so I guess im not as bad as I could be :wink: ah well thx to a certain buggy prefab im on the FOURTH!!! patch of th-2o because SOMEBODY'S prefab littered my map with bsp holes till UEd gave up trying :x :x :x *calm blue ocean,calm blue ocean* :P but now it's look good (outside-inside not been touched) only problem is the map size is steadily rising :? which is a bit worrying when I know that any map over 11mb on my comp will just destroy itself-oh well....... :grin: btw one warshell gets id of that parrot squawking rat 8)

[Chainsaws]

You'll all get your turn to tell me I'm crap :)

You're crap!

I'm just getting it in before Breandor is released and I can't say it any more :P

j/k really, I can't believe you put that much effort into the map review...way to go Nachimir! :thumb:

[DarkProject]

a few things to Nachimir:

first of all thatnks for that, it's what i wanted to hear before making the redone version of the map

anyway
1. i don't care what way the grain of wood is supposed to go :P...but i can't believe you brought this up lol
2. i know the torches with blue light look weird. i was trying to make a blue corona that you can relight but i didn't know how so i just make crazy blue light torches :D
3. the textures on the couch you had (the blue couch in the corner).i did not texture it, that is an actor and you can't retexture actors :(
4. i will delete some lights but i will keep most because it runs fine on my system (except outside)...and it was mainly a practice map for me before i make my REAL map...TH-UmbrellaManor.
5. i know only 1 window opens but that's how i wanted it..just another escape. and i will leave the side out thing.. iknow it looks very weird but hey..it's a weird map. i will take a lot of the mapper comments out as well
6. i will cahnge the guard names and the music in the stage room
7. the rat maze for some reason just got mixed with the normal city zone. this is very weird because until the release version it was it's own zone that had the brightness up to about 200 so yuo can actually see in it...i'll fix this next version
8. the easter egg will be left in. i doubt a thief can get to it and do much with it without cheating..and if he is cheating then he can just summon one. a rat cannot get it because rats can't climb up 90 degree walls....unless i'm missing something here ^_^

here are some questions i have for you master Nachimir (can't wait for your map btw..looks awsome ;) ....erm i got a beta version but since i'm not supposed to have it i didn't look at it)

1. i know the outside area has a very high ceiling but what cna i do about it? if the people go on the roof of the mansion then they will jump and hit the ceiling if i make it any lower
2. i really need to know how i can succesfully zone the outside area
3. how do i make the torch look like a blue corona (or have a blue corona that ca be relit.. do i just change teh mesh of the torch? i don't hink i tried that...i should ;).
4. the loot i know is high but surprisingly when we played it online people had trouble finding it :| ..don't know why but i will leave that as it is and of course my next map will be a lot more professional.

i found out that by making brush sizes multiples of 2 and 4 would lower my bsp errors because then they will be on the grid. for this map i almost always used sizes that are odd numbers/ multiples of 5. i also did not know how to use most of the tools of the editor and really learned them when i was almost done withthe map..like the vertex snap tool...man that would have been usefull

also i can't take anymore AI out....i had to take out like 25 already and it's a very big map so i simply can't take any more out.

[SiLeNt_NiGhT]

Kewlazme wrote:

Spoiler hack is really Highlight button.. but all the same Silent Night just made another reference to a surprise. Spoiler covers are necessary



Surprise!? ,.... :oops: my map a surprise?!....yea, new map...new, maps ....
are ....new, so, surprise, yes..... thats right....ah.... how do I hide this? ...what I just said? Damn, I can't find the spoiler covers!!... :grin:

[Nachimir]

i don't care ... grain of wood ... but i can't believe you brought this up lol


If you don't care, this will still suck in the next version. Texture alignment may be tedious, but it's important. Get DM-Sun-Tzu by Ulukai and check out the texturing on the wheel at one end: Every face has been aligned, if he'd just hit "align to wall" it would have taken a fraction of the time, but also then looked like shit.

You may still not care, but anyone who knows anything about woodwork will see it and instantly think "That is wrong". It detracts from your map.



5. and i will leave the side out thing.. iknow it looks very weird but hey..it's a weird map.


OK, but it would probably improve performance to take it out.



8. the easter egg will be left in. i doubt a thief can get to it and do much with it without cheating..and if he is cheating then he can just summon one. a rat cannot get it because rats can't climb up 90 degree walls....unless i'm missing something here ^_^


Yes, it's that if a thief should happen to get the saw, then get killed in the rest of the map, he will drop the chainsaw. Then a rat can pick it up and use it on people. With practice, anyone so disposed will be able to ruin any network game in your map very quickly. I suppose it would be rare, but technically all you need to get it is a vine arrow and some catfalls. One thief even dying repeatedly trying to get it would be an annoyance online.



master


Please, never call me that, I'd rather be a student :).



i know the outside area has a very high ceiling but what cna i do about it? if the people go on the roof of the mansion then they will jump and hit the ceiling if i make it any lower


Get rid of the roof access altogether. Have the beams in the shaft with a non-transparent skylight covering it, or something. I know it's difficult, but you'll often have to ditch or radically alter an idea if it doesn't perform how you want it to. If you get rid of roof access, thieves banging their head on it won't be an issue, so you can drop the ceiling until it touches the top of the roof. It won't affect how the skybox is displayed.



2. i really need to know how i can succesfully zone the outside area


Occlusion. Make the walls huge, look at how Ulukai avoided the edge of world problem in Grange. If you made a brush as tall as those walls in UED, you'd think it'd never look right, but there are ways.

A few words on zoning: When rendering, the game works away from the player, discarding things behind him and working out what to render first on the basis of what zone they are in, then one the basis of what zones they can see into.

If you can see a portal, the game has to cycle through all the things in the zone and render them if they're in sight, or discard them if they aren't. So, from the town you can see some of the first large portal from almost anywhere when you face west, meaning as well as the town zone it has to work with the mansion frontage too.

From slightly fewer locations in the town, you can see straight through the first portal to the second large one. Even though you can see nothing that is actually in the west garden, because you can see the portal the game is having to decide whether anything in the zone is not occluded and should be rendered. That's why large portals aren't really effective for zoning; the only way they're useful is when making water.

"stat occlusion" will show you occlusion time, which is how long it takes to decide what to render. It should stay below 10 as much as possible, but bear in mind the stat you get is relative to your system.

My advice is to make the walls thicker and raise them to a height of 512uu, then drop the ceiling to roof height. That way your portals will still be quite large, but they won't be so high. You could replace the hop over the wall with a culvert or something like in Nostalgia, and the raised wall would immediately reduce your edge of world problem.

Further to that, if you relocated the fountain room (I think it looks like it should have a lawn in front of it or something rather than floating in mid-air) to the back garden or something, and thieves had a different, lower down way out of the east of the house and through the wall, your edge of world problem in the town would be solved too.

Torchflames use a procedural fire-texture, so you'd have to either find a suitable one in the standard UT texture and set it up in the multiskins part of actor > dispaly, or make a new one and set it up in the same way. I can't tell you about doing that, because I don't know. I just though of someting with coronas, I'll get back to you on that after some experiments... I don't think it'll be possible without scripting.

I had the same problem getting loot; it semed to run dry at 3500 or so, but the log said circa 7250.


i found out that by making brush sizes multiples of 2 and 4 would lower my bsp errors


Hell yeah! When I made my first UT-DM I didn't think grid snapping was important, so I did it without... :erg: If you keep your grid setting at 16 or above whenever possible, vertex edit cleanly, use multiples of 4, and don't use too many complex shapes, you'll see a massive reduction in BSP errors.

I'd consult with a guard guild on the AI to determine how many can effectively guard it.

[Ghostly apparition]

ok I'm not a mapper so know that.
I just have one comment or maybe 2 about this map

My first impression of it is I love it, but the Building with flame fountain
that hangs sorta in midair,well
Let me say I work in construction as trade and as
maybe a builder could actually frame up something like that
(make the basic framework outa wood when building)
but the minute they would start putting in the rock front or
pouring cement for the fountain room, well, the whole thing would just
collapse.

I can see the news headline: building under construction collapses
2 workers feared dead/ film at 11 :eek:

[[RLF]Kore (V)acLoed]

Not a mapper and have not played your map sorry.

Was just wondering not only for your map but also for others. Is there a way to have the height of the sky different at different parts of the map? So like over this tall building you are talking about the sky is high enough for you to jump and not hit your head. Then on another part of your map say the sky is relative to the next objects highest point plus how high you can jump. You would also have to make room for someone jumping out from a building with speed. This way you never hit your head and the maps height is never more then 10 feet above any object. Maybe that would help lag?

I hope that makes sense to you, cause it makes sense to me. :wink:

[[E.D.G]Chief]

well I understand what you mean :) open up most official tut maps and u'll see that most are made in the way you descrive :)

[DarkProject]

yes you can adjust the hieght at different parts...it just takes more than 1 brush..but i have high buildings in almost all the places :-/

and i know it's hard to believe that side thig didn't collapse yet but you're be surprise what the thing is made of!...plastic....hard hard light plastic. :angel:

[KewlAzMe]

just put up a pillar in between the middle of that side thing and the building under it.. then it will look fine and everyone will shut up.

[Carnage]

Haven't seen this mentioned, so thought I'd bring it up...
This could be due to my total n00b-ish-ness, or the fact that I'd run out of vines by this point, but I stumbled upon a spot you can quite easily get stuck in. One of the kitchens (the smaller one) has a sink, with a barrel next to it, stuck back in a corner. I could fit very well back in that corner, but I couldn't for the life of me figure out how to leave it. If you're behind the barrel, you can't mantle up onto it, as it just keeps trying to be pushed. And you can't squeeze by it either. You can, however, get out of that corner if you have a vine. (I suicided and tried it.) Might want to make the barrel non-mobile, or something. Esp. since there's nothing actually back in that corner anyway.

Other than that, awesome map! I've been debating doing one of my own, but have been quite hesitant since I've been nowhere near mapping tools since DoomII. :P How complicated is this whole mapping thing, anyway?

-me.

[assassin]

I HAVE FOUND... a major HM BSP if you got to the front of the place all the way over to the left (if your looking at it in the front) by the slanted ground there is a secret that brings u under one of the floors well i was running around as a rat and i found the hall of mirrors effect HM i think its because of the pipe actor in there might wanna fix that

[DarkProject]

I HAVE FOUND... a major HM BSP if you got to the front of the place all the way over to the left (if your looking at it in the front) by the slanted ground there is a secret that brings u under one of the floors well i was running around as a rat and i found the hall of mirrors effect HM i think its because of the pipe actor in there might wanna fix that

i said that i know ahout that in my original post :p ....i just left it cause i was too damn sick of fixing bsp's... fix one, and another pop's up...

[KewlAzMe]

One of the kitchens (the smaller one) has a sink, with a barrel next to it, stuck back in a corner. I could fit very well back in that corner, but I couldn't for the life of me figure out how to leave it. If you're behind the barrel, you can't mantle up onto it, as it just keeps trying to be pushed.

keep moving the barrel out of the way or... One power hit from the BlackJack or 3 regular hits will break the barrel and ur free.

[KewlAzMe]

How Ironic.. i tell someone else how to get unstuck and I find another spot where I couldn't get unstuck!
http://www.geocities.com/kewlazme/barstuck.JPG

Im in that bar area next to Pat Magroin. Im trying to hide by the door in the shadow and I jumped over the bar and down behind the barstool closest to the wall. But then i couldn't get out because the ceiling is too low to stand and jump and the stool is too high to duck and jump. So im stuck in the corner.

Solution: Shift Bar stool away from wall and shift the rest of the stools down... removing one if necessary.

-EDIT-

I finally found the key to the floor vault. Not "in" the mansion like the note says.. but in the property. I know how to get that easter egg toy down there.. however.. it is impossible to get. First of all, the thieves can't shoot arrows as high as the corridor is. This can be easily circumvented by shooting an arrow half way up and climbing up and shooting another arrow to the top. However.. For some reason.. It wont let you climb ropes that are too high. The rope is there.. and right in the center of the tunnel.. but can't grab it... or climb it. THen after trying 5 times and dying and leaving ropes all over the place. I noticed that when i bought stuff in my V menu on the next life... It no longer told me how many I had as I bought. Then I died again... and once again it wouldn't tell me how many I had as I bought.. and.. when i switched to Vine arrow.. the screen just said "BOW" and it would shoot invisible arrows that did nothing. So did a changemap to the same level again.. and it fixed those problems.. but the climbing of the ropes down the hole still don't work. I even tried flying down there with admin on my own server... and trying to get back up. Well that is surely impossible since you can't change to vine arrow and back to easter egg toy. Plus.. same problem.. couldn't climb out cuz rope arrows wouldn't work.

[DarkProject]

well i have got it... and i'm not saying how...the dedicated people can figure that out. that way less people will get it..anyway, it is very easy to get if you know what you are doing...ps you can't go up the vine if there are 2 vines close to eachothers...they have a colision radius you know...you just gotta know how to shoot them...but to get it you need about 4 catfalls and 6 vines.

[KewlAzMe]

I know about 4 catfalls and 6 vines... actually I think it would take more catfalls than that since you've now told me about this collision radius. But I've shot vine arrows dead center at times into the ceiling over the hole and I can't climb it... Then I'll shoot one half way up, much closer to the wall and I can climb just fine. Then Ill shoot to the other side closer to the wall and can't climb it. Even jumping and shooting wont get the arrow all the way up so you have to shoot one on one side half way, climb up to where the arrow is... and shoot one to the other side at the tip.. then climb down and use the other vine.. but it wont let you climb.. Maybe it will let you climb if u take out the first vine, but then that would require another catfall since as soon as u take the arrow u fall.

I would really like to know if anyone else has really done it and perhaps some tips.

[DarkProject]

a tip: shoot it into the wall...when u climb up taket eh vine out and shoot it into the wall right in front of you and leave it for the way back. don't shoot it at the ceiling

[KewlAzMe]

that isn't the problem... the problem is getting to that point.. i know u have to leave it in the wall.. but it wont let you climb them to get up to that first climb. You have to use two arrows to reach the top so the first one i put into the side wall as high as I can get it.. and i can climb that one fine.. But no matter if I put the second one in the ceiling or in the side wall.. it still wont let me climb. I would assume it would be feasible if the Max distance of the arrow was equal or greater than the length of the run.. but since it isnt.. it requires an arrow to get up halfway.. and another arrow to get up full way... But second arrow never seems to work.. even if I waste a catfall and pull out first arrow and starting from the bottom on that second arrow.. it don't seem to work .. I've even tried jumping from vine to vine.. and i fall to my death. I will try one more thing... then i will come back and call u a liar. ;)

[Chainsaws]

I noticed while mapping that there is a bug with the vine arrows...(I made a REALLY deep drop with wood at the top)

The rope is actually only a limited length, unfortunately the engine draws the 'rope' all the way down to the floor. So what you're trying to actually do is climb rope that is not there, hence why it takes two.

If you're not sure what I mean then open the trapdoor, shoot a vine into the roof and climb down it, at some point you should slip off the end and fall...

[KewlAzMe]

that could make sense.. only the first one doesn't seem to work and I can usually shoot one at the top and climb up on the rest of the tunnels. So you're tellin me that the first drop from the PUB is the longest drop and too long for the real rope. So you need two. I will try that next. But I did get the chainsaw all the way to that last tunnel that u enter and exit at.. so Im sorry for doubting you Dark Project!

[The Dragon]

Darkproject-

I've played your map on another comp. and I love it. Now I need to download it to my computer, so I went to your website, but it doesn't seem to be working for me. www.Tearsofblood.com? I ran a search too, but I'm stuck. Everyone is playing Payback, but I can't! Is this just a problem with my computer, or is the website down?

[Chainsaws]

you've got the address right, use mine instead...

http://www.chainsawdeath.co.uk/

It's got all the maps too.

[The Dragon]

Thanks Chainsaws.

Wow, I love this map!

[DarkProject]

tx and yes dragon the site was down for admin clean-up day :)

[DhaThief]

tx and yes dragon the site was down for admin clean-up day :)

But the forum was open.... :roll:
-DhaSpammer

[DarkProject]

tx and yes dragon the site was down for admin clean-up day :)

But the forum was open.... :roll:
-DhaSpammer

forum doesn't run off site server

[Ghostly apparition]

just an observation here, I know its not really a complaint but
I noticed quite a few dining rooms in your map with silver plates
and cups etc, one all the way second flor or 3rd not sure ,one on first floor
plus the ball room. I just was thinking as i was playing this map
that if a thief actually stole all that silver tableware that he would probably be heard clanking around with a huge bag of plates and cups.
In fact he would be heard 10 miles away in the local police station.
LOL

[DarkProject]

just an observation here, I know its not really a complaint but
I noticed quite a few dining rooms in your map with silver plates
and cups etc, one all the way second flor or 3rd not sure ,one on first floor
plus the ball room. I just was thinking as i was playing this map
that if a thief actually stole all that silver tableware that he would probably be heard clanking around with a huge bag of plates and cups.
In fact he would be heard 10 miles away in the local police station.
LOL

i don't even think he'll be able to fit all those plate in a pouch anyway :P

[Aggamemnon]

He melts the little buggers down into ingots doesnt he...... with his magic ingot making machine of course :P

[KewlAzMe]

I think the thief is santa claus or his elves... gets all those toys into a small bag.. same concept here! Thats where santa gets all the money to pay for these toys.. He's Thieving the rest of the year!

[DarkProject]

I have lowered the lag outside so it's not as bad now. I am now working on improving objectives (lower loot objec) and added MORE secrets...at least one more ;)

anyway, i had to take out 2 rooms (the side thing from the mansion. I kept the barracks but moved them. LR is now dead ;) also. (he was cauing too many script errors)

should be ready in the next week :ninja:

[MrEricSir]

LR is now dead ;) also. (he was cauing too many script errors)
:cry: But... but... THAT WAS SO COOL!