Open Letter to the Guilds

[Grank]

Open Letter to Guilds

Recently I've been thinking about the guild TUF. I understand their policy of being a secret guild is in keeping with the Thief series. I question if it can play a role in TUT, in a matching environment. I have several concerns with TUF:

1. If we don't know who they are then how do we know that they aren't fielding players in matches that aren't actually members? These players rarely play in the public servers so there is no way to verify IP's etc.

2. I understand they have no issues with recruiting or holding members that are in other guilds. In fact, one of our CTG members was approached for recruitment. So if you're a guild planning for a match with TUF it's very possible for a member of TUF, who is secretly in your guild, to feed your strategy to the other members of TUF. I consider this cheating.

Now the above are only concerns and may not actually occur. I'm willing to concede that. What worries me is we have no basis for trusting they won't use these tactics because we don't know who they are.

There is an honor system in the Turf Wars that to me is unspoken. I trust the guilds not to field players that aren't in their guild or to recruit spy's in my guild. I have no reason to trust TUF though. I actually have a reason to distrust them since they have attempted to recruit one of our members.

There is a lot of room for abuse by TUF. I'm unsure I'm willing to trust a bunch of players I don't know.

-Grank

[MrEricSir]

Grank, you have to consider that "trust" is a strong word, considering that we don't really know one another anyway. There are probably TuF members in CTG (and FAG as well) but since TuF has not had any matches thus far I don't see how it really matters.

[LaughingRat]

That's precisely the point, MrEric. How can you expect to have a fair match against them if they already know exactly what you're planning to do, what your strategies are for the maps you're playing?

[Grank]

Grank, you have to consider that "trust" is a strong word, considering that we don't really know one another anyway. There are probably TuF members in CTG (and FAG as well) but since TuF has not had any matches thus far I don't see how it really matters.

Well I'm just looking out for CTG and trying to give the rest of the guilds a heads up.

Whenever I enter into a match I have a certain amount of trust in the other guild. I trust them to be honest. If I didn't we wouldn't match them.

[Kiech Bepho]

As for the TUF not playing in a match yet, they have entered TurfWars and issued a challenge to KYO already. Also, I think there are a few of problems not mentioned yet:

1. Any spies that are discovered will probably find themselves not-well-liked by their peers quickly, and these personal quabbles is something that the community has been trying to avoid.

2. There may also be TUF sabotures among the guilds. During a match, a player may purposefully throw a game to the TUF while pretending to be loyal to thier guild. This doesn't have to apply to only matches vs the TUF either. Thier agents could tip the balance of the entire tournament, as they continue to lame and throw maps to different teams. The simplest form of this is to simply not show up for a scheduled match. A team that is missing players will find themselves wanting.

3. Counter-ops. Other guilds will begin to set up their own spy network as well. Which will just lead us back to more of #2.

I am not saying that TUF will or is planning on any of this, but to me, its fairly obvious where they can take this. And while it may seem dangerous and exotic to many players, the odds are that it will only cause problems.

Kiech

[The_Dan]

I have an opinion on this, but I've edited this post 6 times now to reflect both sides & so I've just given up.

I don't like the morals behind TuF, but honour/morals/validity are all defined personally (what I don't think is fair may be fine in your opinion & vice versa) & so it's hard to produce a solid argument against them.

[Grank]

As for the TUF not playing in a match yet, they have entered TurfWars and issued a challenge to KYO already. Also, I think there are a few of problems not mentioned yet:

1. Any spies that are discovered will probably find themselves not-well-liked by their peers quickly, and these personal quabbles is something that the community has been trying to avoid.

2. There may also be TUF sabotures among the guilds. During a match, a player may purposefully throw a game to the TUF while pretending to be loyal to thier guild. This doesn't have to apply to only matches vs the TUF either. Thier agents could tip the balance of the entire tournament, as they continue to lame and throw maps to different teams. The simplest form of this is to simply not show up for a scheduled match. A team that is missing players will find themselves wanting.

3. Counter-ops. Other guilds will begin to set up their own spy network as well. Which will just lead us back to more of #2.

I am not saying that TUF will or is planning on any of this, but to me, its fairly obvious where they can take this. And while it may seem dangerous and exotic to many players, the odds are that it will only cause problems.

Kiech

I hadn't considered #2 but it's a very good point. Members of TUF could throw matches for the other guilds they're in.

I'd like to reiterate that I'm not saying they will do any of this but there is a lot of room for abuse and yet little recourse or proof that we could provide that it isn't happening. The door is just too wide open for this group of players. Having dual guild memberships opens many doors for abuse.

[The_Dan]

OK, considering that TuF may be ABLE TO effectively fix matches (I didn't say that they are, I said that they might be able to), are we allowed to refuse the right to play them in Turf-wars?

[Grank]

Greetings NameEditedOut,

Firstly let me introduce myself, I am Killsw!tch, a Keeper in The Unforgiven, I deal with most of the ?admin? jobs we have to do such as posting on the forums and messaging new recruits. I have another alias and you have played with me before.

You come highly recommended by my fellow guild members, all of which have commented on your exemplary attitude and first-rate skill.

Ok, so let me tell you what you?d be getting in to if you joined :-
We are The Unforgiven, we want to appear like a kind of ?Dark Brotherhood? of Thievery, and so far that seems to be going to plan. Our members are people who you?ve played with and talked to, but you just didn?t know it. Members can be part of other Guilds or Lone wolfs, these members feed us information other guilds may not be able to offer you.

We use this knowledge to learn new tricks, have advance information on what a particular guild is planning prior to a match, and just for pure gossip!

So what?s in it for you?
*First and foremost, FUN!
*Guild Website
*Private Forums, we discuss everything in here, anything we find out from any of the guilds we?ve currently infiltrated. We also organise Practice times here.
*Practice matches, Learn from us, and teach us!
*Knowledge of anything our contacts find out.

Upon joining the Guild you?d have to create a new alias for yourself. You don?t have to wear this alias other than at practice matches and in proper guild matches. I wear mine when I?m looking for recruits as well, which is why I?m probably the only member you see around.

We realise that like all of us you probably have a busy real life as well, so please don?t feel obligated to play like a thievery whore or we?ll kick you from our ranks, our main focus is to have fun, and thievery is only a game.

If you are interested, and would like more information simply Privately Message us back at this address and we?ll gladly answer all your questions.

Thank you for your time
Killsw!tch ? Keeper.

Here is the PM one of our members received. It pretty much tells it all. They are willing to use inside information on guilds. What else can i say?

[LaughingRat]

OK, considering that TuF may be ABLE TO effectively fix matches (I didn't say that they are, I said that they might be able to), are we allowed to refuse the right to play them in Turf-wars?

The rules for TurfWars, as they are written, do not allow you this privilege.

[Kiech Bepho]

OK, considering that TuF may be ABLE TO effectively fix matches (I didn't say that they are, I said that they might be able to), are we allowed to refuse the right to play them in Turf-wars?

Remember, your matches against TUF may not be fixed after all. But the upcomming CTG match may already be. It may not matter if you play them or not, so that is not a solution.

The question at hand is: will this guild be accepted or not? Or rather, can you really prevent this from happening in the first place? The TUF sound VERY much like a true thief guild, and many will be highly intrigued to join due to the origins of this game.

So, if you disallow them from the tournament, they could easily disband or appear to follow 'standard' protocols, while still doing everything I mentioned above to remain in the tourny. Or they could get the message and give it up. If you really wanted to stop this altogether, the admins would need to observe EVERY player that passes into their servers, and account for them - which is not as we know foolproof.

I could give examples and ways to run such a guild, but I am probably already saying too much as it is. I am not going to tell anyone what you should/should not do here, since I am not in a guild, but you need to consider this carefully and thoughtfully.

Again, the typical disclaimer, I have no clue what TUF is up to or if they even have this in mind.

Kiech

[BobTheDog]

I motion against allowing TuF to play in the Turfwars. It's simply not safe enough.

[DarkProject]

yes, well in ToB we have STRICT policy NOT to be in any other guild. so anyone to be in another guild will be KICKED OUT!

[DarkProject]

i must explain myself. if someone is in a 2 guilds then our secret strategies arn't very secret. say MR. C. is in ToB and TuF and Mr. B is in Tuf and TCO. Mr. C leaks strategies to TuF. Then all of TuF know and so does Mr. B who then leaks our strategies to TCO. understand. i find that a bit like cheating

so if ANYONE is in TuF that is in ToB you better quit TuF now and tell me and maybe you'll have some chance of not being kicked. if not then good :D

[Mad_Gerbil]

First:
I'd like to thank Grank and LaughingRat for bringing this problem to our attention. These two work harder than anyone I know to help preserve the integrity of the game and they should be thanked by us all.

Second:
It is now a strict RLF policy that you may NOT be a member of another guild and be a member of the RLF. I had not considered this before because I'd not considered the implications in turfwars.

Third:
The RLF will not be participating in matchs against TuF until all IPs of their players are known and compared against our own membership and the membership of other clans. If TuF wants to remain a secretive organization, then they forfeit the right to play in Turfwars as far as I'm concerned. Cannot have it both ways.

Fourth:
If you are currently a member of the RLF and working for TuF you may drop out with no hard feelings. IF I find out that you are a member of another guild and merely using an alais after a match has taken place I'll do everything in my power to get you banned from every server out there. (You must pick the RLF or TuF)

Fifth:
I do not speak for the Wraiths. See Darkbill for that.

[daniel]

i don't get it. i thought tuf was the dev team. :sweat: :P :joking:

[Omega]

What are you people hiding? Goverment secrets? :P :wink:

[CrouchingDork]

i don't get it. i thought tuf was the dev team. :sweat: :P :joking:

TUT is the dev team. TUF is totally seperate.

[Biohazard]

I think I'm going to have to agree with Mad Gerbil on this one.

All policies he has stated will go in to affect for TCO as well.

[Lurox]

What Gerbil said. Now that you made me think about it, this is just wrong.

Also, why should we give ourselves the trouble to compare IPs for one match? Let's just not play against them until they give out their identities. After all, it ain't funny anymore..

[Omega]

I think you people are overreacting. :roll:

[DarkProject]

I know grank, but I'm only teasing you. I think it is bad for a guild to have people who hardly know each other. If you know each other, trust is much easier.
I'm quite sure you don't really know the members you currently have. From my perspective CTG tries to gain as much members as possible to keep up their "superior" image.

Actually, Omega, we're turning people away right now. We're not open for recruitment at this time, and I've had to tell about half a dozen people that, just in the last two weeks. We don't try to gain as many members as possible for the sake of image.
oh ya us too...we're not looking for any members at all :erm: :sweat:

[DarkProject]

is it just me or did page 2 dissapear?

[Omega]

It's been split (http://www.thieveryut.com/bb/viewtopic.php?t=764).

[WildBill]

I have no problem with people aliasing -- I can understand why some people do, and I'm fine with it. When TuF first went public I thought it was a pretty cool idea, a secret guild fit in with the Thievery world fairly well. However, there are some serious problem with a guild like that, as a couple people outlined above.

What really disturbs me is their stated intent of infiltrating other guilds. That strikes me as wrong in a number of ways. For one, it could destroy guild matches and TurfWars, and for a second, if they get found out, there's going to be a lot of animosity about it. I'd like to see them abandon their efforts to infiltrate other guilds, which would result in some members being forced to choose between two guilds.

Until this is resolved, I think TuF should abstain from any matches.

It goes without saying being in another guild isn't tolerated in the Wraiths.

[daniel]

I think you people are overreacting. :roll:

i agree. they haven't done anything, ever(not that i remember). r they still here?

[LaughingRat]

I think you people are overreacting. :roll:

i agree. they haven't done anything, ever(not that i remember). r they still here?

They intend to be playing in TurfWars.

[modetwo]

Maybe get to know and trust a player before recruting him/her could eliminate that so-called 'spy' problem!?

Some guilds has got so many members that I guess they don't even know each others age.

[MrEricSir]

I think you people are overreacting. :roll:

i agree. they haven't done anything, ever(not that i remember). r they still here?

They intend to be playing in TurfWars.
And let me go on the record saying that FAG will not be participating in TurfWars with TuF.

[Omega]

Why not? Are you affraid they will find out your gay secrets? :ebil:

*Sits back and waits for the topic to get split again. :wink:

[Shug]

I think TuF started off as an exciting idea... but ended up one that would be better off in a mmorpg or similar. The whole infiltration idea is very much a roleplay kind of thing... but they ruined it when they tried to snatch the wrong player(s) - and that was always where the risk lay in the system - the advantage is only with you so long as other people aren't aware of it. I think they would have had problems with double agents, anyway.

I think now that it's known, the whole system will probably collapse of its own accord.

Mode: How much can you truly know a person over the internet? I think every guild has a core of players who were in there from the beginning (or know each other personally), but the rest of the newer players will always have a cloud of doubt hanging around them, even if only a small one.

[The_Dan]

I think you people are overreacting. :roll:

i agree. they haven't done anything, ever(not that i remember). r they still here?

They intend to be playing in TurfWars.
And let me go on the record saying that FAG will not be participating in TurfWars with TuF.

Apparently we don't have the right to refuse a match (see earlier post in this thread)

If they challenge us, we HAVE to play them :x

[MrEricSir]

If they challenge us, we HAVE to play them :x
We'll just pretend they don't exist. :)

[BobTheDog]

And let me go on the record saying that FAG will not be participating in TurfWars with TuF.

Apparently we don't have the right to refuse a match (see earlier post in this thread)

If they challenge us, we HAVE to play them :x

I feel an exception towards the TuF is well in order. Honestly, guild administrations cannot find all the TuF members that may be in their guilds. Some players may be highly intent on keeping their identity secret. What is the only solution? Prevent them from doing anything useful with their "power." I feel that perhaps a vote is in order regarding this matter. One for each guild.

[LaughingRat]

I can shed a little light here. All this got me to wondering, so I decided to do some digging. Here's what I found outright:

http://personalpages.tds.net/~laughingrat/images/KeeperID1.JPG

And:
http://personalpages.tds.net/~laughingrat/images/KeeperID2.JPG

And:
http://personalpages.tds.net/~laughingrat/images/KeeperID3.JPG

And:
http://personalpages.tds.net/~laughingrat/images/KeeperID4.JPG

That's four different occasions that TheMachine has posted from the same IP as "The Keepers". Even assuming that "The Keepers" was on the same dialup service as TM to begin with, the odds of that happening by chance are on the order of 1 in 10^20, or about 1 in 1 Quintillion.

At this time, I'd like to ask all other TuF members to be honest and come forward with your public identities, and I'd like to ask the leaders of the guilds they've infiltrated to go easy on them if they do. In the meantime, I'm going to be doing some digging through every log I can lay my hands on, in order to verify those who come forward, and to identify those who can't.

[LaughingRat]

Oh, and BobTheDog, never tell me what I can't do. :grin:

[WildBill]

<evidence>

This isn't unexpected, although it is unfortunate. It's also supported by evidence from other, independent, sources. TheMachine is no longer a Wraith. Damn I didn't want to do this.

As LR said, I'd like to encourage other members of TuF to make their public identities known. It's not like you can really hide.

[modetwo]

Well, the secret is now spoiled. Guess Wraits is one of the infiltrated guilds! :ebil:
I get a feeling someone else from UK is in TuF as well, am I right? ;)

[WildBill]

Well, the secret is now spoiled. Guess Wraits is one of the infiltrated guilds! :ebil:

Was. And it's not like we didn't know, just waiting for additional confirmation.

[Shug]

LR, good job... however, may I suggest you blank out those IPs?

[LaughingRat]

Well, the secret is now spoiled. Guess Wraits is one of the infiltrated guilds! :ebil:
I get a feeling someone else from UK is in TuF as well, am I right? ;)
Sounds like mOdEtWo already knows something. However, I'm not going to comment on the identities of any other TuF members at this time. I want to give them time to do the honorable thing and come forward voluntarily first.

LR, good job... however, may I suggest you blank out those IPs?
I left the IP's in for a couple reasons. First, to show that two accounts posted from the same IP. Second, because all those IP's belong to the same ISP, which is a dialup provider. TheMachine's IP changes each time he connects, so none of those IP's are "his" IP.

[Shug]

Ah yeah... good call.

[modetwo]

Sounds like mOdEtWo already knows something.
I know as much as you do.

I just have this wierd feeling, think I know who's next to be exposed! ;)

[DarkProject]

Guess Wraits is one of the infiltrated guilds!

so is -=:ToB:=-

oh what do you know....the site has been infiltrated also >: (..and teh freakin forum!

[modetwo]

Hunt them down! :ebil:

[Dalai]

Jeez, you guys. There's a handful of players here and yet you can't help but rip each other apart and drive each other away.

I'm pretty sure the TuF guys were just entering into the sneaky thiefy spirit of things and didn't mean any cheating.

This kind of play might not be suitable for a tournament though, I can see that. Kicking players out of your guild is going a bit far though, don't you think?

[LaughingRat]

I'm pretty sure the TuF guys were just entering into the sneaky thiefy spirit of things and didn't mean any cheating.

This kind of play might not be suitable for a tournament though, I can see that. Kicking players out of your guild is going a bit far though, don't you think?

I'm sorry, Dalai, but I don't agree with your sentiment here. Why wouldn't you expel someone from your team who's already demonstrated that you can't trust them? It doesn't make for a close knit team that knows they can rely on each other to have a member like that.

[BobTheDog]

I was only half serious. I was going with the whole spirit of the game. I wasn't looking for someone to check IPs and reveal the heretic. But that's what's happened. :-/

[Mad_Gerbil]

Jeez, you guys. There's a handful of players here and yet you can't help but rip each other apart and drive each other away.

I'm pretty sure the TuF guys were just entering into the sneaky thiefy spirit of things and didn't mean any cheating.

This kind of play might not be suitable for a tournament though, I can see that. Kicking players out of your guild is going a bit far though, don't you think?

I'd be interested in how you'd like us to handle it.

Assume you've discovered a player on your team who is actually the leader of a clan you'll be matching.

Have your strategies been communicated to the other team?
Is the player going to 'throw' a game so his 'real' guild wins?

I don't spend hours studying maps and working with my team mates just so some guy I thought I could trust can sell me up the river or throw the match.

[Dalai]

Well, I'd like to give people the benefit of the doubt. I'd like to believe they didn't form TuF so they could cheat, but rather to provide some mysterious opponents.

Now you've come up with rules against it, couldn't you give them a chance to stop?

I just think if you keep booting out players, soon enough you'll have no one left to play with. ;)

[DarkProject]

Well, I'd like to give people the benefit of the doubt. I'd like to believe they didn't form TuF so they could cheat, but rather to provide some mysterious opponents.

Now you've come up with rules against it, couldn't you give them a chance to stop?

I just think if you keep booting out players, soon enough you'll have no one left to play with. ;)

if that ever happens you may need to come out of your shell and play with us sometime!


i'm thinking maybe dalai uses an alias.....hmmm would be funny if we got mad at him on his alias and banned him from the server :lol:

[Machine]

That's four different occasions that TheMachine has posted from the same IP as "The Keepers". Even assuming that "The Keepers" was on the same dialup service as TM to begin with, the odds of that happening by chance are on the order of 1 in 10^20, or about 1 in 1 Quintillion.

At this time, I'd like to ask all other TuF members to be honest and come forward with your public identities, and I'd like to ask the leaders of the guilds they've infiltrated to go easy on them if they do. In the meantime, I'm going to be doing some digging through every log I can lay my hands on, in order to verify those who come forward, and to identify those who can't.

This is total horse shit, I’m thoroughly sick to fucking death of you LaughingRat calling the shots on the entire community, if you’d just had fucking given the Unforgiven a chance to reform.

NEARLY ALL The guild leaders stated that if any infiltrated member had links to the TuF that they should quit the TuF and stay loyal WHICH IS WHAT 90% OF THE TUF ARE DOING RIGHT NOW. INCLUDING MYSELF.

But I guess it’s too late now, I’m out of the wraiths and out of TUF (check your oh so precious logs) I quit a while ago opting for the wraiths over TUF (my ex-teammates may recall I’ve been posting on the crackaz forums much more now)

I guess that there can be no mystery with Thievery can there? The irony is killing me, funny as hell isn’t it? I’m sure that in their initial statement The Keepers asked for those with the power to identify them to not do so.

SO GO A-FUCKING-HEAD and identify the other members, and revel in how much everybody loves you for it.

Dalai is right, The Unforgiven want(ED) to give you a different enemy, it was good until you discover there’s no glory, nobody knows it’s me whose winning, just some nameless player. That, along with time restrictions is why I left. Dalai is also right about booting players, it’s up in the air at the moment whether or not I’ll be back on the servers, as my old alias or at all. OH WAIT it won’t matter because people will just identify me anyway! Once again I being to chuckle at the lack of mystery in a mod that contains so much of it!

I tried to do the right thing and quit TuF, pity you didn’t give us the time, there was never an intention to cheat, or boycott matches, but I don’t expect you to believe that for one second, and you all know why.

TheMachine – Signing off.

[Yenzarill]

I liked the idea of TuF, thought it was fun.
Although the situation Gerbil describes is awkward, I'm sure the TuF member would be kind enough not to screw over another guild they are in, because they are also in another.

Maybe TuF was a great idea that, in reality, wouldn't work when it came to Guild wars.

Or maybe it was killed.

Pity. :roll:

[Grank]

This is total horse shit, I?m thoroughly sick to fucking death of you LaughingRat calling the shots on the entire community, if you?d just had fucking given the Unforgiven a chance to reform.

NEARLY ALL The guild leaders stated that if any infiltrated member had links to the TuF that they should quit the TuF and stay loyal WHICH IS WHAT 90% OF THE TUF ARE DOING RIGHT NOW. INCLUDING MYSELF.

But I guess it?s too late now, I?m out of the wraiths and out of TUF (check your oh so precious logs) I quit a while ago opting for the wraiths over TUF (my ex-teammates may recall I?ve been posting on the crackaz forums much more now)

I guess that there can be no mystery with Thievery can there? The irony is killing me, funny as hell isn?t it? I?m sure that in their initial statement The Keepers asked for those with the power to identify them to not do so.

SO GO A-FUCKING-HEAD and identify the other members, and revel in how much everybody loves you for it.

Dalai is right, The Unforgiven want(ED) to give you a different enemy, it was good until you discover there?s no glory, nobody knows it?s me whose winning, just some nameless player. That, along with time restrictions is why I left. Dalai is also right about booting players, it?s up in the air at the moment whether or not I?ll be back on the servers, as my old alias or at all. OH WAIT it won?t matter because people will just identify me anyway! Once again I being to chuckle at the lack of mystery in a mod that contains so much of it!

I tried to do the right thing and quit TuF, pity you didn?t give us the time, there was never an intention to cheat, or boycott matches, but I don?t expect you to believe that for one second, and you all know why.

TheMachine ? Signing off.

TM I brought this to everyone's attention because of the letter you sent one of my guildmates. In that letter you made it clear you would use inside information on guilds you had infiltrated. That's unfair to everyone that TUF is a member of.

There is a reason we didn't identify any of the members of TUF for a few days after my initial post. We wanted to give the members of TUF a fair chance to come forward and set things straight. None of you took that opportunity and have backed us into a corner.

We want to keep things fair in the Turf Wars. No one from TUF had responded to these posts. I hope you can see this isn't just LR, it's almost every guild that thinks this is unfair. We gave you and the other TUF members a chance to come clean either publically or with there respective guilds. If that isn't going to happen then we are going to let the other guilds know what is going on so they can do what they think is right.

Again LR gets blamed for something that isn't his fault. I brought up this issue and then several of the other guild leaders agreed. LR just provided some of the proof. If you want to blame someone then you need to blame us all. Although I think the blame lies with TUF because none of you took it upon yourselves to explain or set the record straight.

[Machine]

And you can honestly say you directly PM'd the keepers to ask them what was happening? or me for that matter? this could have been resolved in a far more plesent way.

no you can't say that. because you didn't.

[SeEManN]

Thnx a lot LaughingRat. After Frantic the second great player quits because of your behavior.

[Grank]

And you can honestly say you directly PM'd the keepers to ask them what was happening? or me for that matter? this could have been resolved in a far more plesent way.

no you can't say that. because you didn't.

No this was done publically because it affects several guilds and they need to be aware of it.

[Machine]

Thnx a lot LaughingRat. After Frantic the second great player quits because of your behavior.

hehehe, your next SeEManN being one of the greats has its pitfalls!

[LaughingRat]

Dalai: TuF's stated intent was to infiltrate other guilds from the very beginning. There's a PM from them to one of my members stating so explicitly. In addition, we're not driving any players out of the game. We're just trying to make it so that people can have some confidence in the outcome of their matches.

SeEManN: I don't know what to say. I've repeated time and time again that it's not ME that drove Frantic out. There was a group of people, yet you persist in laying the entire responsibility for it on my shoulders. Then you join a secret "shadow" guild. What did you THINK was going to happen?

TheMachine: The matter was made public several days ago. Other guild leaders expressed their concern, and you've been posting here since then. In that time, TuF did NOT come out and withdraw from the tournament. You had ample time to do so. In addition, if you quit TuF to be in the Wraiths, why have you continued to speak as the leader of TuF?

We attempted to give TuF every opportunity to do the honest thing here, and that opportunity was never taken. I'm sorry that you feel you've been wronged, but consider all the other players you've wronged yourself.

[Machine]

TheMachine: The matter was made public several days ago. Other guild leaders expressed their concern, and you've been posting here since then. In that time, TuF did NOT come out and withdraw from the tournament. You had ample time to do so. In addition, if you quit TuF to be in the Wraiths, why have you continued to speak as the leader of TuF?


LEADER! WOOT i never knew i lead them too! neat!

Anyway, pop yourself over to the general discussion board I'm ending this if everyone else is happy to. But could you please remove those IP's, I don't fully understand what can be done with them as I'm not that hot on internet stuff, but i'd rather they wearnt there.

[Mad_Gerbil]

TheMachine

My IP is 207.179.81.130

It is always that.
It doesn't even change like yours changes.
You have nothing to worry about because your IP is always changing.
People who see those numbers LR posted DO NOT know your IP address today.

Relax.

[Machine]

TheMachine

My IP is 207.179.81.130

It is always that.
It doesn't even change like yours changes.
You have nothing to worry about because your IP is always changing.
People who see those numbers LR posted DO NOT know your IP address today.

Relax.

Ok, i just didn't know :erg:

[daniel]

TheMachine r u leaving? :cry: please don't, i need other great players to blance things out in the games because i am soooo good! :thumb:

[Machine]

TheMachine r u leaving? :cry: please don't, i need other great players to blance things out in the games because i am soooo good! :thumb:

I'm not leaving Dan, don't worry, i'll fight you more!

[The_Dan]

TheMachine r u leaving? :cry: please don't, i need other great players to blance things out in the games because i am soooo good! :thumb:

I'm not leaving Dan, don't worry, i'll fight you more!

& now the opinion of the second of the Dan's:

TuF was never gonna be popular, after it became public that they were purposely gonna play below-the-belt against other guilds. Therefore, I think people should definately have the choice about whether to play them in Turf-wars or not. It's a guild-specific decision.

However, that was all about the guild as an a single-entity.

Machine was the only member unlucky enough to be caught out, & so we shouldn't start firing this "Anti-TuF-witchhunt" at him. If he did genuinely plan on leaving TuF then he really should've informed the Wraiths before today, but I still think kicking him out of the guild was a little bit harsh.

Machine you're an outstanding player, but you've just made a few bad decisions that are coming back to haunt you. This'll all blow over in a week.

[KewlAzMe]

That's precisely the point, MrEric. How can you expect to have a fair match against them if they already know exactly what you're planning to do, what your strategies are for the maps you're playing?

How do we know that Grank isn't in RLF under a different name with a different IP? He might use AOL for CTG and JUNO for TCO... we don't know.. which brings me to my other point... WHO CARES.. Gangs (or as you call them: Guilds) are bad... just get good on your own for yourself to have fun and play for yourself so if you have a good day or a bad day.. you have no one to impress but yourself. Play anywhere you want.. at anytime.. with members of our small community and have a blast! its still a game..... And where is KilSw!tches comments? if he is the main man in TuF.. id like to hear his side.

I am anti-guild mainly for this reason! All the Drama and Bullshit. See you all in the game!
where is 1.3?!

Ok im done.

[The_Judge]

Kewlazme, in case you haven't noticed Grank IS in RLF. In case you haven't noticed everyone is a member of RLF. Even Dalai is in RLF. You are surrounded by the RLF. RLF owns you. :o :joking:

[KewlAzMe]

LOL.. RLF must go down!

[Mad_Gerbil]

LOL.. RLF must go down!

I'm pleased to announce that KewlAzMe has just been accepted into the RLF.

[KewlAzMe]

DOH! :o