The maps that worked so well for years have probably finally been broken

[]>CoD<[Chief]

The thing with Flats is that while yes it is quite large, it's designed so that there are pockets of main loot within easy guarding distance.
Also the open terrain/multiple paths allows for easy travel by both guards and thieves, so it doesn't get quite as choked up as other larger maps which are less spacious.
It would be so nice to see the original flats but no one has ever found an archive, 4 times bigger (but without any AI/loot setup I was once told by Joel.

[Keggie]

Could you write down your thoughts about this? Probably I've heard about tough places in official maps but I have no idea what could be done with all of them.

i would but to lazy to much and tbh it would be pointless as opinions on map changing will always be different from person to person. but will give you opinion on 1 map as its easy to do

Th-AirShip
-Remove Time limit
-Remove 2 thief lives 4v6 not 6v6
-reduce loot needed by 500/1000, you need way to much atm.
-Fix Door block bug

there, nice and quick harder to dm with less lives and easier to ghost with more time and less loot needed. i did infact make this version into a FV map, not sure if the one on the server is mine or someone elses tho, prob someone elses as the skelston on the server isnt mine someone renamed it atleast

But we have official Flats and Mensh which both rather large. Am I right that loot on Apprenticev2, Breandor, DanteBeta, LordBeck maps could be balanced some how? Decreasing loot value in thief objective or changing prices of snagged loot objects on map. If this could help there is a question why map testing (before release) didn't fix this issue.

it might but then you'd have huge areas of the map that are pointless and not needed at all. with a map like flats its large as it has many routes, with apprentice you have a set route you must follow. guarding that is rather easy as you know most the time thieves will have to come past you. its not just about loot, its the flow of the map also. Mensh was a map i never really got to play much. its prob not too bad to play, but having the body makes it just a campers map. never aproved of body carrying. then again i dont really aprove of specifc objective items in some maps either. beta testing doesnt always help, as i said in above post, opinions vary and it comes down to what the mapper deicdes.

But on big maps guards still have their usual options:
1) patiently camp
2) spawn rape
3) patroll and check the loot, ai, doors, objectives.
any of these options can produce in result good chasing.
You say "not enough guards". Do you mean not enough players? Cos if there are enough players on server we would have not just many guards but many thieves also. Both teams would have fun with each other.
Usually when there are many players on server we play Flats, Mensh, Breandor - already well learned maps.

ah watafa, i think you have to play them more in big groups to understand it, im not saying its to hard for guards. it works both ways, it will become either too hard for guards, or too hard for thieves depending on how the game goes. if anything it tends to become to hard for thieves. really a map should be made so 1 thief can win alone. and when your playing against extra human guards then the chances of running into human guards happens much more, so you use equipment much faster. Big maps also tend to end up lasting extra time, meaning theres more people in spec, who get bored and leave. also alot of the time when theres 1 thief left taking his time as shug said, the guards just start messing about and loose interest in the game. big maps just dont tend to work as well. Flats isnt that big, it appears it but has chief said the loot placement has been made well to guard and the amount of routes to different areas is exerlent for thieves. flats can be played from 1v2 to a 4v4 and still work very well, altho the exit is a bit tricky when guards defend it with 4.

"danger" in multiplayer=human guards? In other words nobody from us want to learn these maps in single player?

mainly yes. alot of people learn multiplayer games by playing online. you learn faster and can ask for help or advice if needed. with most games thats perfectly fine. with thievery tho knowing the map is a key role for either team. so maps like gerome/skelston are voted by newer players as they can see most of the map in 1 go. just easier to take in.

If you lazy you can check this video about it http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=51odAov_YcI

could be interesting, cannot really judge a map untill you have played it many times with groups of players tho.

BTW here rating of custom maps - http://forums.blackcatgames.com/showthread.php?t=8604

wouldnt follow that, theres many maps on that, that are completly unplayable in multiplayer. Scripts is just a box with new items for testing/displaying. SwordArena is on there.. not even a thief map, its made for duels, zidabobe isnt even a tvg map. geromenew2 might even be the offical gerome now. chatspace.. not really a tvg map and even country abode has 8 votes..

[WTaFa]

i would but to lazy to much and tbh it would be pointless as opinions on map changing will always be different from person to person. but will give you opinion on 1 map as its easy to do

Ok, I'll arrange you to comment design of official maps later.

...with apprentice you have a set route you must follow...

I thought that this map has a lot alternative routes between loot areas for thieves and guards.

...really a map should be made so 1 thief can win alone...

Do you mean singleplayer or multiplayer?

...and when your playing against extra human guards then the chances of running into human guards happens much more, so you use equipment much faster...

and this is right on big map too?

...Big maps also tend to end up lasting extra time, meaning theres more people in spec, who get bored and leave. also alot of the time when theres 1 thief left taking his time as shug said, the guards just start messing about and loose interest in the game...

If last alive thief is pro who know this map well, guards and rats would be enough patient no matter what. If it would newbie people will call just vote for next map.

Yeah chasing thieves from the rooftops on Flats is cool, but large maps have such pincushion areas too. Or maybe it's really a problem that guard can't kill thieves in close combat soo often?

...mainly yes. alot of people learn multiplayer games by playing online. you learn faster and can ask for help or advice if needed. with most games thats perfectly fine. with thievery tho knowing the map is a key role for either team. so maps like gerome/skelston are voted by newer players as they can see most of the map in 1 go. just easier to take in.

If that is newbie from Thief1/2/3 playerbase it is not harder for him to complete large map I think. BTW is that not typical for casual thievery players to practice in single player time from time? In 2003 there wasn't problem to learn new map - everybody were Thief funboys. Why and when this issue were changed?

LakeShorePub to be a good map is because theres 3 key areas, 1 guard takes each. gerome has 3 key areas, nostaliga has 3 key areas, theatre has 3 key areas,
flats has.. around 4 key areas, grange has 4 key areas...
Apprentice has 2 key areas, and loads of extras iirc, but the point is, there isnt enough guards to watch all the areas, so it normaly comes down to waiting for a long time doing nothing for a guard = no fun.

So Apprentice has not so much key loot areas and guards could have fun roaming nearby extras for some patrolling. Not bad?

...quality you'd want to see in regular public play. Well balanced, with variable paths and strategies for each side.

Apprentice wasn't played enough often and guards didn't developed workable strategy for it. Case closed?

...wouldnt follow that, theres many maps on that, that are completly unplayable in multiplayer...

And? It was multiple choice poll so playable maps still got some votes.

...even country abode has 8 votes..

That's right, Keggie, cos everyone wonna rush it or thief match it. I'm interesting in your opinion about that pool. Some additional thoughts?

[Keggie]

I thought that this map has a lot alternative routes between loot areas for thieves and guards.

i think the only way you will understand wtafa is if you actualy play with a group of people who know the map well enough to thief it. some maps work out, others do not. Big maps and thievery just dont seem to work. the only way of knowing this is by playing with that amount. big maps tend to just end up been dull games.

Do you mean singleplayer or multiplayer?

Both. if a lone thief cannot win theres no point him playing really.

and this is right on big map too?

happens on all maps. on large maps thieves have to cover x3 the distance, and normaly loot more stuff, so the moment you run into a guard, you cannot really use equipment and benifit from looting. in smaller maps the idea is to disable/distract a guard and loot the area, large maps mean more loot so you have to do this more often, and you dont have enough equipment. its possible of course, but it will come down to sheer blind luck rather then tactical thinking.

If last alive thief is pro who know this map well, guards and rats would be enough patient no matter what. If it would newbie people will call just vote for next map.

no, you donot start a vote when a game is still going, simply bad mannors. they came to play the same as you did, just because you died and are out and cannot play is no reason to start a vote. anyway iv known many better then average players who would sit and wait for there chance, jsut as boring for guards and spec's regardless.

Yeah chasing thieves from the rooftops on Flats is cool, but large maps have such pincushion areas too. Or maybe it's really a problem that guard can't kill thieves in close combat soo often?

its more of a case guards dont see any action for longer periods of time. in theory the thief player calls all the shots, the guard players have to react to those shots, you can go for 5 mins in a map like brendor and not even hear a thief or find any loot missing. and when you do, you alert your team, and have 5 guards in 1 loction looking for a thief who doesnt have many places to run too, as it might be a large map, but the areas are small and pokie, and a thief on the run is much easier to find.

If that is newbie from Thief1/2/3 playerbase it is not harder for him to complete large map I think. BTW is that not typical for casual thievery players to practice in single player time from time? In 2003 there wasn't problem to learn new map - everybody were Thief funboys. Why and when this issue were changed?

not everybody, and you really shouldnt base your thoughts on the odd poll, i bet at least 70% of the entire thievery playerbase has never been on this forum. a good 30% of that 70% prob joined, made a few posts and left. many multiplayer games only play multiplayer games and donot vist game websites. theres no need, they have their game and they play their game. i'll grant you the fact thief players will prob tend to learn the maps in single player first, i was a thief 1/2 player and i joined thievery 1.4, but i never joined online untill 1.51, but not everyone plays games like that, certainly not now. how many TF2 players do you think learnt in Single player?? none, as there is no single player (well there is now altho theres no point touching it )

So Apprentice has not so much key loot areas and guards could have fun roaming nearby extras for some patrolling. Not bad?

Apprentice wasn't played enough often and guards didn't developed workable strategy for it. Case closed?

as i said in first post, you have to play the map in a group of players who know what there doing to understand, whatever i say you just wouldnt understand unless you have played like it. big maps dont work in thievery. the only big maps that work, are maps that do not feel big, flats isnt that big when you can get from 1 side to the other guard free in 20 seconds same as DE. and no, its normaly map wasnt played enough often and Thieves didnt work out the best strategy for it, case closed. in theory the thieves work out the best map strategy, then the guards can work out how to prevent it. untill the thieves work out that strategy they tend to die lots faster.

And? It was multiple choice poll so playable maps still got some votes.

yeah they also got random votes where people only knew 1/2 maps and voted that map only. if you want a proper poll you need a set of people who know EVERY map on the poll well and can give there opinion. it was also for maps to be added to a mappack, not whats your opinion on the better custom maps which is what we were discussing.

That's right, Keggie, cos everyone wonna rush it or thief match it. I'm interesting in your opinion about that pool. Some additional thoughts?

my additional thoughts would be calling people names for voteing pointless crap ;p thievery's playerbase i found allways has had a few odd players. the way they play/vote and act is somewhat silly at times. i mean.. occam.. the map was made as a piss take.. and thievery players loved it country abode was ruined when the 10 sec invis spawn timer was added, noones fault, just turned out that way, and players love a nice easy fast pointless game for some reason.. its not even that much fun in thiefmatch, its a nice map in a 1v1 if you donot rush, but everyone allways rushes it, the ideas to win and play dirty, you are a thief after all.