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Thread: Open Letter to the Guilds

  1. #1
    Open Letter to Guilds

    Recently I've been thinking about the guild TUF. I understand their policy of being a secret guild is in keeping with the Thief series. I question if it can play a role in TUT, in a matching environment. I have several concerns with TUF:

    1. If we don't know who they are then how do we know that they aren't fielding players in matches that aren't actually members? These players rarely play in the public servers so there is no way to verify IP's etc.

    2. I understand they have no issues with recruiting or holding members that are in other guilds. In fact, one of our CTG members was approached for recruitment. So if you're a guild planning for a match with TUF it's very possible for a member of TUF, who is secretly in your guild, to feed your strategy to the other members of TUF. I consider this cheating.

    Now the above are only concerns and may not actually occur. I'm willing to concede that. What worries me is we have no basis for trusting they won't use these tactics because we don't know who they are.

    There is an honor system in the Turf Wars that to me is unspoken. I trust the guilds not to field players that aren't in their guild or to recruit spy's in my guild. I have no reason to trust TUF though. I actually have a reason to distrust them since they have attempted to recruit one of our members.

    There is a lot of room for abuse by TUF. I'm unsure I'm willing to trust a bunch of players I don't know.

    -Grank

  2. #2
    Member MrEricSir's Avatar
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    Grank, you have to consider that "trust" is a strong word, considering that we don't really know one another anyway. There are probably TuF members in CTG (and FAG as well) but since TuF has not had any matches thus far I don't see how it really matters.

  3. #3
    That's precisely the point, MrEric. How can you expect to have a fair match against them if they already know exactly what you're planning to do, what your strategies are for the maps you're playing?

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by MrEricSir
    Grank, you have to consider that "trust" is a strong word, considering that we don't really know one another anyway. There are probably TuF members in CTG (and FAG as well) but since TuF has not had any matches thus far I don't see how it really matters.
    Well I'm just looking out for CTG and trying to give the rest of the guilds a heads up.

    Whenever I enter into a match I have a certain amount of trust in the other guild. I trust them to be honest. If I didn't we wouldn't match them.

  5. #5
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    As for the TUF not playing in a match yet, they have entered TurfWars and issued a challenge to KYO already. Also, I think there are a few of problems not mentioned yet:

    1. Any spies that are discovered will probably find themselves not-well-liked by their peers quickly, and these personal quabbles is something that the community has been trying to avoid.

    2. There may also be TUF sabotures among the guilds. During a match, a player may purposefully throw a game to the TUF while pretending to be loyal to thier guild. This doesn't have to apply to only matches vs the TUF either. Thier agents could tip the balance of the entire tournament, as they continue to lame and throw maps to different teams. The simplest form of this is to simply not show up for a scheduled match. A team that is missing players will find themselves wanting.

    3. Counter-ops. Other guilds will begin to set up their own spy network as well. Which will just lead us back to more of #2.

    I am not saying that TUF will or is planning on any of this, but to me, its fairly obvious where they can take this. And while it may seem dangerous and exotic to many players, the odds are that it will only cause problems.

    Kiech

  6. #6
    I have an opinion on this, but I've edited this post 6 times now to reflect both sides & so I've just given up.

    I don't like the morals behind TuF, but honour/morals/validity are all defined personally (what I don't think is fair may be fine in your opinion & vice versa) & so it's hard to produce a solid argument against them.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Kiech Bepho
    As for the TUF not playing in a match yet, they have entered TurfWars and issued a challenge to KYO already. Also, I think there are a few of problems not mentioned yet:

    1. Any spies that are discovered will probably find themselves not-well-liked by their peers quickly, and these personal quabbles is something that the community has been trying to avoid.

    2. There may also be TUF sabotures among the guilds. During a match, a player may purposefully throw a game to the TUF while pretending to be loyal to thier guild. This doesn't have to apply to only matches vs the TUF either. Thier agents could tip the balance of the entire tournament, as they continue to lame and throw maps to different teams. The simplest form of this is to simply not show up for a scheduled match. A team that is missing players will find themselves wanting.

    3. Counter-ops. Other guilds will begin to set up their own spy network as well. Which will just lead us back to more of #2.

    I am not saying that TUF will or is planning on any of this, but to me, its fairly obvious where they can take this. And while it may seem dangerous and exotic to many players, the odds are that it will only cause problems.

    Kiech
    I hadn't considered #2 but it's a very good point. Members of TUF could throw matches for the other guilds they're in.

    I'd like to reiterate that I'm not saying they will do any of this but there is a lot of room for abuse and yet little recourse or proof that we could provide that it isn't happening. The door is just too wide open for this group of players. Having dual guild memberships opens many doors for abuse.

  8. #8
    OK, considering that TuF may be ABLE TO effectively fix matches (I didn't say that they are, I said that they might be able to), are we allowed to refuse the right to play them in Turf-wars?

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Letter to one of our members
    Greetings NameEditedOut,

    Firstly let me introduce myself, I am Killsw!tch, a Keeper in The Unforgiven, I deal with most of the ?admin? jobs we have to do such as posting on the forums and messaging new recruits. I have another alias and you have played with me before.

    You come highly recommended by my fellow guild members, all of which have commented on your exemplary attitude and first-rate skill.

    Ok, so let me tell you what you?d be getting in to if you joined :-
    We are The Unforgiven, we want to appear like a kind of ?Dark Brotherhood? of Thievery, and so far that seems to be going to plan. Our members are people who you?ve played with and talked to, but you just didn?t know it. Members can be part of other Guilds or Lone wolfs, these members feed us information other guilds may not be able to offer you.

    We use this knowledge to learn new tricks, have advance information on what a particular guild is planning prior to a match, and just for pure gossip!

    So what?s in it for you?
    *First and foremost, FUN!
    *Guild Website
    *Private Forums, we discuss everything in here, anything we find out from any of the guilds we?ve currently infiltrated. We also organise Practice times here.
    *Practice matches, Learn from us, and teach us!
    *Knowledge of anything our contacts find out.

    Upon joining the Guild you?d have to create a new alias for yourself. You don?t have to wear this alias other than at practice matches and in proper guild matches. I wear mine when I?m looking for recruits as well, which is why I?m probably the only member you see around.

    We realise that like all of us you probably have a busy real life as well, so please don?t feel obligated to play like a thievery whore or we?ll kick you from our ranks, our main focus is to have fun, and thievery is only a game.

    If you are interested, and would like more information simply Privately Message us back at this address and we?ll gladly answer all your questions.

    Thank you for your time
    Killsw!tch ? Keeper.
    Here is the PM one of our members received. It pretty much tells it all. They are willing to use inside information on guilds. What else can i say?

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by The_Dan
    OK, considering that TuF may be ABLE TO effectively fix matches (I didn't say that they are, I said that they might be able to), are we allowed to refuse the right to play them in Turf-wars?
    The rules for TurfWars, as they are written, do not allow you this privilege.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by The_Dan
    OK, considering that TuF may be ABLE TO effectively fix matches (I didn't say that they are, I said that they might be able to), are we allowed to refuse the right to play them in Turf-wars?
    Remember, your matches against TUF may not be fixed after all. But the upcomming CTG match may already be. It may not matter if you play them or not, so that is not a solution.

    The question at hand is: will this guild be accepted or not? Or rather, can you really prevent this from happening in the first place? The TUF sound VERY much like a true thief guild, and many will be highly intrigued to join due to the origins of this game.

    So, if you disallow them from the tournament, they could easily disband or appear to follow 'standard' protocols, while still doing everything I mentioned above to remain in the tourny. Or they could get the message and give it up. If you really wanted to stop this altogether, the admins would need to observe EVERY player that passes into their servers, and account for them - which is not as we know foolproof.

    I could give examples and ways to run such a guild, but I am probably already saying too much as it is. I am not going to tell anyone what you should/should not do here, since I am not in a guild, but you need to consider this carefully and thoughtfully.

    Again, the typical disclaimer, I have no clue what TUF is up to or if they even have this in mind.

    Kiech

  12. #12
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    I motion against allowing TuF to play in the Turfwars. It's simply not safe enough.
    BobTheDog says, "Now you've gone too far!"

  13. #13
    Member DarkProject's Avatar
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    yes, well in ToB we have STRICT policy NOT to be in any other guild. so anyone to be in another guild will be KICKED OUT!

  14. #14
    Member DarkProject's Avatar
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    i must explain myself. if someone is in a 2 guilds then our secret strategies arn't very secret. say MR. C. is in ToB and TuF and Mr. B is in Tuf and TCO. Mr. C leaks strategies to TuF. Then all of TuF know and so does Mr. B who then leaks our strategies to TCO. understand. i find that a bit like cheating

    so if ANYONE is in TuF that is in ToB you better quit TuF now and tell me and maybe you'll have some chance of not being kicked. if not then good

  15. #15
    First:
    I'd like to thank Grank and LaughingRat for bringing this problem to our attention. These two work harder than anyone I know to help preserve the integrity of the game and they should be thanked by us all.

    Second:
    It is now a strict RLF policy that you may NOT be a member of another guild and be a member of the RLF. I had not considered this before because I'd not considered the implications in turfwars.

    Third:
    The RLF will not be participating in matchs against TuF until all IPs of their players are known and compared against our own membership and the membership of other clans. If TuF wants to remain a secretive organization, then they forfeit the right to play in Turfwars as far as I'm concerned. Cannot have it both ways.

    Fourth:
    If you are currently a member of the RLF and working for TuF you may drop out with no hard feelings. IF I find out that you are a member of another guild and merely using an alais after a match has taken place I'll do everything in my power to get you banned from every server out there. (You must pick the RLF or TuF)

    Fifth:
    I do not speak for the Wraiths. See Darkbill for that.
    "A gerbil is a rodent, wretched creature and quite possibly represents yourself there unclean vile obsolete weak and live happily in there and others filth, they have caused plague and death to humans and nearly wiped us out" - industrialism

  16. #16
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    i don't get it. i thought tuf was the dev team.

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    What are you people hiding? Goverment secrets? :wink:

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by daniel
    i don't get it. i thought tuf was the dev team.
    TUT is the dev team. TUF is totally seperate.

  19. #19
    Member Biohazard's Avatar
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    I think I'm going to have to agree with Mad Gerbil on this one.

    All policies he has stated will go in to affect for TCO as well.

  20. #20
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    What Gerbil said. Now that you made me think about it, this is just wrong.

    Also, why should we give ourselves the trouble to compare IPs for one match? Let's just not play against them until they give out their identities. After all, it ain't funny anymore..
    JM

  21. #21
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    I think you people are overreacting. :roll:

  22. #22
    Member DarkProject's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaughingRat
    Quote Originally Posted by Ømega
    I know grank, but I'm only teasing you. I think it is bad for a guild to have people who hardly know each other. If you know each other, trust is much easier.
    I'm quite sure you don't really know the members you currently have. From my perspective CTG tries to gain as much members as possible to keep up their "superior" image.
    Actually, Omega, we're turning people away right now. We're not open for recruitment at this time, and I've had to tell about half a dozen people that, just in the last two weeks. We don't try to gain as many members as possible for the sake of image.
    oh ya us too...we're not looking for any members at all

  23. #23
    Member DarkProject's Avatar
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    is it just me or did page 2 dissapear?

  24. #24
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    It's been split.

  25. #25
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    I have no problem with people aliasing -- I can understand why some people do, and I'm fine with it. When TuF first went public I thought it was a pretty cool idea, a secret guild fit in with the Thievery world fairly well. However, there are some serious problem with a guild like that, as a couple people outlined above.

    What really disturbs me is their stated intent of infiltrating other guilds. That strikes me as wrong in a number of ways. For one, it could destroy guild matches and TurfWars, and for a second, if they get found out, there's going to be a lot of animosity about it. I'd like to see them abandon their efforts to infiltrate other guilds, which would result in some members being forced to choose between two guilds.

    Until this is resolved, I think TuF should abstain from any matches.

    It goes without saying being in another guild isn't tolerated in the Wraiths.
    Nearly all men can stand adversity -- if you want to test a man’s character, give him power.

  26. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ømega
    I think you people are overreacting. :roll:
    i agree. they haven't done anything, ever(not that i remember). r they still here?

  27. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by daniel
    Quote Originally Posted by Ømega
    I think you people are overreacting. :roll:
    i agree. they haven't done anything, ever(not that i remember). r they still here?
    They intend to be playing in TurfWars.

  28. #28
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    Maybe get to know and trust a player before recruting him/her could eliminate that so-called 'spy' problem!?

    Some guilds has got so many members that I guess they don't even know each others age.

  29. #29
    Member MrEricSir's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaughingRat
    Quote Originally Posted by daniel
    Quote Originally Posted by Ømega
    I think you people are overreacting. :roll:
    i agree. they haven't done anything, ever(not that i remember). r they still here?
    They intend to be playing in TurfWars.
    And let me go on the record saying that FAG will not be participating in TurfWars with TuF.

  30. #30
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    Why not? Are you affraid they will find out your gay secrets?

    *Sits back and waits for the topic to get split again. :wink:

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