Hack tool needed?

[lightfoot]

You know it. You can't start the map with the equipment you would like to pick, you get the 'This mission requires a tech marine to complete' message.

But you know you can beat the map without a tech and without the tool. Damn, you could, if your extra slot was free.

I understand that it is a certain map specific flag, preventing players from starting with wrong equipment and being unable to beat the map. A dynamic flag, it seems, for if objectives get completed, it may turn off, if hacker/tool gets obsolete to finish the map from there on. And it triggers the 'no tech marine alive - mission failed' function, which has its uses, of course, but really is annoying sometimes, for it will time you out, even if it would be possible for you still to finish it. As on Navigation, for example, where there is a tool on the map.

Happens on a lot of maps, lets see. Rescue, Research, Barracks. Navigation. Depot. Daylight. I didnt try them all out, but there are more, I think. Enough to make it an issue.

Even if you consider the wall jump on Research an exploit, this flag should be turned off there, one could try jumping the lazers normally, or something.

And if there is a hack tool on map, what's wrong with grabbing it and finishing the mission, if the hacker dies? In fact it even times out when a non-tech, who brought the hack tool, dies.


Two ways around this, at least.

1. The Game gets modified in a way preventing that problem.

Could be done in different manners, but as to how doesnt belong here. I will post a parallel thread in the Discussion Hall about it. The maps could stay as they are (or get altered, too, if the mapper feels like doing that).

2. Those maps could have that certain flag toggled.

Would that be a problem? Much work? I don't know much about mapping, please enlighten me...

Depends on the map, i guess. You wouldnt want that change to make it too easy. On Research, for example, it would be OK for me if the wall jump is blocked or something, as long as I am allowed to start the map without a tool. But that exploit is another issue still.

Get me right, I dont want to propagate making use of exploits, or allowing even more exploits. I just want to be allowed to be creative with what i bring, and with the stuff I find in the map!

[Ki!ler-Mk1]

the one on research is too hard for new people to merit turning off, but navigation is one where this is practical.

Where is the hacktool on barracks?

Depo the hacktool is after a door that only opens 1 way.

These 2 must have a hacker at the start, well im not sure, can u sue t75 on barracks?

Rescue & navigation this cud be ok for good.

[lightfoot]

not sure, can u sue t75 on barracks?

Yes, you can. And of course there are other ways to breach there.

Only one door, and then you could proceed with the tool there.

Barracks is a good example, breaching that one door doesn't seem as an exploit/hack to me at all.


I would admit that all this is most important when trying to solo/rambo a mission, so it could seem it is a little bit against the teamspirit thought.

But it is a point in a small team, as well. And nothing wrong with having fun with solo attempts, I think, they shouldnt be discouraged.

[sofos]

Well if a door is shootable, why shouldn't somebody try to open it that way? This is why it is shootable . On the other hand you can't really know what the mappers were thinking.
Also if i remember correctly Rescue doesn't require a tech marine. Actually i think it is a good example of what you are supporting You can shoot the first door and then move further without any problem.

[lightfoot]

Just checked that, you are right, sofos. Rescue doesn't need a hack tool to start. And yes you are right, this is how it should be.

On most maps this has been done right, sometimes the hack tool is very hard to get, even. Like, say, in Fetch or Underneath.

Leaves on the List of maps that have this problem: Research, Barracks, Navigation, Depot and Daylight.

Correct me if you find another one pls.


OK, not a really great issue, if it's just those five maps. I still would like to know, would it be a great effort to change that?
It doesnt seem so, at first thought. But who am I to know.

[Fuzzy Bunny]

Don't forget Lost Contact! You can skip the second and third hacks and breach the doors instead. SE version only.

[Ki!ler-Mk1]

On most maps this has been done right, sometimes the hack tool is very hard to get, even. Like, say, in Fetch or Underneath.

Leaves on the List of maps that have this problem: Research, Barracks, Navigation, Depot and Daylight.

Correct me if you find another one pls.

Correct me if im wrong, but the research thing isnt notice able for first time single player doods, and depot well that door near the hacktool is one way.

[Fuzzy Bunny]

That first hack in depot is optional.

[lightfoot]

there is a hacktool on Depot, so why not allow the map to be started without bringing yet another one?

[Hybrid]

2. Those maps could have that certain flag toggled.

Would that be a problem? Much work? I don't know much about mapping, please enlighten me...

Just wanted to touch on this because nobody else has. The "requires tech marine" setting is a toggle on an objective by objective basis (so if you complete the hack objective and poor Nerd Boy dies, no "Mission failed" popup), set entirely by the mapper's whim. Why, if the mapper were incredibly sadistic, xe could set bRequiresTechMarine to True even if there's nothing to hack in the entire level! The horror! The horror!



It would be a simple matter to track down all the places where this is set to True and change them to False when there's a hack tool in the map, but I believe that would be most impolite to do without the original mapper's consent. Also, it would cause a version mismatch with people that haven't made the change; it would have to be included in an official patch so that everyone is on the same page.

The downside to this is for the newbies. Though they should quickly learn upon playing ReactorCore that techs are generally important for continued success, they might neglect to take Nerd Boy or The Mighty Pirate some mission, not be able to find the hack tool, and summarily indulge in "freaking out".

[Moses2k]

So, now that you've opened up UED, are you going to make something to share with us, your friends?

[Hybrid]

But of course. Consider the best map in the world to be on it's way. It will, of course, require a tech marine, but have nothing to hack.

[Pestcontrol]

set AoMissionObjective bRequiresTechMarine false

[Hybrid]

Or in the case of AO-Research, and possibly some other silly maps.

set AoMissionInfo bRequiresTechMarine False

[lightfoot]

Ah! Thanx, Salsa, Pest, I just saw you solved this!

Yes, 'set AoMissionObjective bRequiresTechMarine false' works on Barracks, Navigation, Depot and Daylight.

Research and LostContactSE8 need the 'set AoMissionInfo bRequiresTechMarine False' to be started without hacker/tool.

It sets that option to off globally, hm? Nice. I really need to look into mapping...

But it wouldnt be so easy in multiplayer would it?


And, more important, can we all agree about that this is not cheating?