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Old 10th Apr 2004, 09:47 PM   #1
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I was going to make a post about this, but Dalai made the greatest review yet for a TurfWars match. Thanks to him for spectating for us and making the report.

Also thanks to M for being patient with us. The match finally came together, and even though it was a little rough in the second round, we worked it out. I do think that the TurfWars rules should be looked into a bit further when it comes to the use of bug exploits however....

http://www.thieveryut.com/tfreport.htm
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Old 10th Apr 2004, 09:54 PM   #2
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No wonder Dalai was so quiet, he was a busy little bee.

GJ Dalai, although i wish you had said hi to me :cry:

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Old 10th Apr 2004, 09:55 PM   #3
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Hello TafferBoy
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Old 10th Apr 2004, 09:58 PM   #4
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Assuming there are no objections from M, I'll update the standings.

Thanks to Dalai for such a fantastic write-up!
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Old 10th Apr 2004, 10:02 PM   #5
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Well DoneTSG, and good work to members of M.
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Old 10th Apr 2004, 10:09 PM   #6
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GG boys

 Originally Posted by Biohazard:
I do think that the TurfWars rules should be looked into a bit further when it comes to the use of bug exploits however....
Now, I coded barrels and crates to be pushable for just this very reason. Thievery offers many ways to play and making use of the environment and objects in it are perfectly feasible tactics. This however, doesn't stop Phaethorn sitting and complaining about it for 5 minutes before carrying on with the game.

Interesting
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Old 10th Apr 2004, 10:12 PM   #7
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 Originally Posted by Biohazard:
TurfWars rules should be looked into a bit further when it comes to the use of bug exploits however....
I agree, one of these days someone might use a nasty bug exploit. We should act now before it happens, right?
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Old 10th Apr 2004, 10:17 PM   #8
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The truth of the matter is, we planned to camp doors, but louie suspected a thief got out, so I made the call to fall back to the exits.
Too bad it was the wrong call to make, but still

Once at the snow exit, I decided to use the barrels, that's why the mapper put them there right?
Anyhow, thieves firstly, didn't really try to escape via second exit and also, from experience, it is not hard to push through barrels and then run to exit, I had no traps, no whistlers, NO other options.
Fun game, but besides the point, once our thieving effort failed, it was pretty much all over. I really do hope there are no hard feelings.

Its worth looking into those barrels for the next version though, they can be used to much greater effect then what i put them to.

Nice one picking up on the Ai hearing Rodent and alerting Phae, you have a keen eye thats for sure Dalai :wink:
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Old 10th Apr 2004, 10:23 PM   #9
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"Thanks to him for spectating for us and making the report" "GJ Dalai" "Thanks to Dalai for such a fantastic write-up!"

Np, was a fun match to watch.

Re: the barrels - I can see in cases where you push two alongside one another, so that they're unpushable, they could break certain maps ("chokepoints" being Breakout's middle name), but most offer alternative routes. For the ones that don't, I'd say the map was broken, not the barrels.

Incidently, was the version of Breakout with a third stairwell and a vent route up ever released? Though after watching this game, I guess the guards would rush straight to those two exit doors and it'd still be quite the chokepoint map.
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Old 10th Apr 2004, 10:55 PM   #10
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You know as well as I do that those barrels cause the 'crater into an abyss'. That's my only problem with that. I don't care how many legitimate crates you throw at the door, but don't use the ones that are b0rked when you could easily get real crates.
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Old 10th Apr 2004, 11:10 PM   #11
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The other issue with those barrels specifically is that they're indestructible. I think all the other moveable barrels in the other maps can be destroyed. If that were the case with these, even pushing two together so they can't be pushed out of the way would be a non-issue.
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Old 10th Apr 2004, 11:25 PM   #12
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Well done guys
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Old 11th Apr 2004, 12:46 AM   #13
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Great work TSG -- that's not an easily ghosted map.
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Old 11th Apr 2004, 12:50 AM   #14
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 Originally Posted by Biohazard:
You know as well as I do that those barrels cause the 'crater into an abyss'. That's my only problem with that. I don't care how many legitimate crates you throw at the door, but don't use the ones that are b0rked when you could easily get real crates.
Sry mate, but i have to say that you are wrong, its not those barrels in particular that cause the 'crater
bug, but any crates, books and other things. It happens to me a fair bit as well. Basically Phae was unllucky to be dealt that bug at that moment, but.

1) The Mockers and I cannot be held responsible for random bugs in the game.
2) I did not take full advantage of the fact that the barrels are indestructable, you can use them in such a way that they render the snow exit completely impossible to get through.
3) At the time I said I was sorry that you were effected by that crater bug, and I meant that. Mockers and I do NOT rely on Map Bugs and exploits to win maps, we played the game in a fair spirit.

Remember that you won, congraulations!
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Old 11th Apr 2004, 01:31 AM   #15
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First of all Bill, the map WASN'T ghosted...

And now, I feel I should say my piece for Gladius.
The use of those crates was not a pre-meditated action, our plan never involved them and that's important to note. What did happen was that he ended up with a thief behind him, another before him, a completed objective and a complete lack of equipment and traps.
As a result, he chose to use those crates in a manner that meant they could still be by-passed, but aided him to defend a position by himself (and realistically, had he not, it was game over.)
I'm proud that Gladius had the courage to make the call and that he stood by it despite the absolute shit-storm that got thrown his way by two players renowned for their ability to whinge the leg off a chair.
TSG decided they would not use the fact that they had him surrounded to work as a team to remove a counterable blockade. Instead, some (completely unverified as far as I can tell) accusations were thrown and in the end, unless I am gravely mistaken, they spat the dummy and suicided without even trying to win in a situation that was extremely winnable.
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Old 11th Apr 2004, 06:48 AM   #16
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Aww Well Done TSG! and condolances to .:m. - I'm sorry to hear the match was tarnished by this barrel argument. maybe it is something to look at in future, but lets not beat each other up about it... you of all people know what it's like to throw "ARG MAP EXPLOIT" at somebody feeling you were cheated out of a victory.... dont you?

Stay tuned for TuF vs CoD next week, fancy doing the same for that one Dalai?
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Old 11th Apr 2004, 07:29 AM   #17
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My thanks goes out to the mockers for playing the first and last round normally. My thanks also goes out to dalai for speccing us and making that great review. It was good

Now about those barrels dalai, did you code them to be pickable and only carried once? Did you code them not to be distroyed, ever? Did you code the loot noice when you pick them up?

I wanted a clean fight. Blocking the doors with two whistlers on top of eachother, I expected that. Blocking exits or any other doors with your body, I expected that. But I did not expect the mockers using a lame tactic like that and I certainly did not expect rodent to lie two days before the match. I talked on irc with rodent and he even said mockers won't use those barrels, for it is seen as cheating on crackaz. I can post the log if you wish.

It was clearly that I would crater because the top barrel would fall down, but I don't take the mockers responsible for that. What you said shug about that we could win it, I don't care about that. I want a normal clean fight and actualy have the feeling I won. That round was messed up so we decided to move on to the next round by suiciding. I did not want to win that round anymore, even if it was dead-simple.
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Old 11th Apr 2004, 07:43 AM   #18
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Well done TSG , and a nice report from Dalai.
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Old 11th Apr 2004, 07:54 AM   #19
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I'm not even going to touch that, I've said what I've said.
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Old 11th Apr 2004, 08:33 AM   #20
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The only thing more pathetic than a someone that whines when they lose is someone who whines when they win.

I suggest everyone puts away their testicles.

No one broke any rules.
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Old 11th Apr 2004, 09:34 AM   #21
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Considering the tactics we used to beat m. when we played them and how well they took it I think you guys should leave it, both sides. Sounds like m. have been on both sides of this now and considering how good-natured they were when we pulled our tricks on them and the fact that ours were planned (if not as controversial as those barrels, still a shock to them) I think you should let it lie. After all, TSG still won and like Yenz says, it's awful when the winning team whine.
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Old 11th Apr 2004, 10:18 AM   #22
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Yep, I'd say that .:m did what they had to do. Against all odds manage to pull outa there with a tie, then a loss on Nostalgia.

Great job, both guilds, and Dalai's gripping report.
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Old 11th Apr 2004, 10:25 AM   #23
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 Originally Posted by Chainsaws:
it's awful when the winning team whine.
Sorry TSG... as much as I like you... this is true.
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Old 11th Apr 2004, 10:49 AM   #24
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 Originally Posted by TheMachine:
 Originally Posted by Chainsaws:
it's awful when the winning team whine.
Sorry TSG... as much as I like you... this is true.
Just because we won doesn't change the fact that we didn't like what happened. Yes, I say "we didn't like it" because for some using those barrels seems as normal as the air you breath.
I have the right to whine about it if I want, and I will do so if I desire. It might have been better in overal if we continued to play that round without saying a word about the issue, but for myself that wouldn't feel right in any way.
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Old 11th Apr 2004, 12:19 PM   #25
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It's quite fine if you don't LIKE our tactics.

It's another thing to accuse the guild of abusing bug exlpoits.

At least you've changed what you're saying now. So it's all ok.
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Old 11th Apr 2004, 12:53 PM   #26
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Well, I would point out that we complained about this before we ever knew we were going to win....

But whining is pointless unless we are trying to get something, which is something that I think everyone in the TUT community can appreciate.

A serverwide list of bug exploits that are considered unacceptable for use. I think that if the admins get together and point out SPECIFIC bugs that are not to be abused, then we won't have any contravercy. I think this would be in the interest of all guilds, no?
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Old 11th Apr 2004, 02:27 PM   #27
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 Originally Posted by Yenzarill:
No one broke any rules.
Not true, actually. I was going to post this in M's forums, but since it's been made an issue here, I'll post here instead.

In setting up the match, one of the leaders of M agreed that the barrels would not be used. That constitutes a pre-agreed upon condition of the match, under the TurfWars rules. Section II, Paragraph D.4 of the TurfWars rules states that:
 Quote:
Violation of any non-negotiable rule, or agreed upon rule forfeits the entire match.
Had TSG not actually won the match, I'd have to have ruled it a forfeit in their favor anyway.

There is no issue with the barrels themselves. They're part of the environment, meant to be used, and don't create any situation that can't be countered. The issue is with how M dealt with setting up the match. Trickery and deception are part of the gameplay, but they should be kept in the game, In setting up a match, any team loses credibility if they deliberately deceive the opposing team into believing the conditions of the match are other than they actually are. M, as a guild, behaved deplorably in this, and has lost a good deal of respect in my eyes, and in the eyes of others who are aware of the conditions surrounding this match.

That's all I'm going to say on the subject.
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Old 11th Apr 2004, 03:06 PM   #28
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Old 11th Apr 2004, 03:11 PM   #29
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If .:M said they werent going to use the barrels, then.... why did they?

i r confused.
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Old 11th Apr 2004, 03:22 PM   #30
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 Originally Posted by FixXxeR:
If .:M said they werent going to use the barrels, then.... why did they?

i r confused.
I think that can be explained by the fact it was not part of the plan in the beginning. As one of the mockers posted above they were not planning on using the barrels at all. It just came into gladius mind to use it I think.

Plus I don't think rodent was truely speaking for his guild when he said that. It was more a comment where he spoke for himself ( even though he said "the mockers" ). I'm not going to sue him for it, but it's disapointing.
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