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Old 13th Apr 2010, 11:52 AM   #1
LoUie
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Thief 4/Thi4f (Multiplayer discussion)

Rescently saw the news about Thief 4 coming, they had forums and even a topic where they discussed Multiplayer in Thief 4.. and ofc! did 90% ~ didnt want it hahaha.. >,> The "Thief" players are really Singleplayer fans, not really any "gamers" so thats why they think that Thief 4 SP-only would be better than Thief 4 SP+MP (if the games were identicall even tho its a extra feature with MP) lol..

I really hope that they make a Multiplayer feature in Thief4.. srsly, cant like some of the BlackCat crew or something try contacting them, and talk about Multiplayer in T4 and TUT in generall, they might have a good word in on this and make it happen, this could be Night-Blades rescue.. This could be, INSANELY nice, lets try to fight for the MP in upcoming Thief 4 ffs!

I posted a matchvid from ToD when me and Shug had great teamplay to try to inspire them and se how insanely nice Thief-MP is on high level (still the best game idea EVER imo, really unique and extremely fun) if someone gets in contact with crew of T4 feel free to show them an example of one of the ToD matchvids on my youtube, i'll try to contact them myself when i get a little more time.. Peace ya'll !
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Old 13th Apr 2010, 12:39 PM   #2
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let them finish Thief 4 SP first, if it's any good, why not make a addon with multiplayer later?
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Old 13th Apr 2010, 01:36 PM   #3
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Co-op multiplayer would be awesome, if it was done correctly.
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Old 13th Apr 2010, 04:56 PM   #4
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gaming in generall is developing since times passing by, so it becomes better and better. tbh, singleplayer is so 90s.. many ppl today cant se no fun in playing vs. AIs anymore. if im playing games, i want high skilled, smart, human opponents.. not some dumb AIs.. DATS, DATS WHAT I THINK!
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Old 13th Apr 2010, 05:08 PM   #5
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 Originally Posted by LoUie: ( link to post ) 
gaming in generall is developing since times passing by, so it becomes better and better. tbh, singleplayer is so 90s.. many ppl today cant se no fun in playing vs. AIs anymore. if im playing games, i want high skilled, smart, human opponents.. not some dumb AIs.. DATS, DATS WHAT I THINK!
play UT 99 vs godlike then, can't say they are dumb and low skilled.
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Old 13th Apr 2010, 05:30 PM   #6
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you dont seem to get the point at all. i rather play vs. low skilled humans than high skilled AIs.. AIs will always be AIs, and like i said, SP is dieing out more and more, havent you wondered why? Theres simply no joy in playing nore winning vs. an AI.

And AIs always has some kind of AI cheat, like psychic, aimbots and stuff, so if u think that bots in UT 99 on godlike is "skilled"? then you're totally wrong sir.
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Old 14th Apr 2010, 03:16 AM   #7
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AIs have their place is Single player games,In multi-player no substitute for a human opponent though I agree.
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Old 14th Apr 2010, 09:33 AM   #8
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Louie, go play MMORPG, it has multiplayer only.
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Old 14th Apr 2010, 10:11 AM   #9
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While your suggestion about adding multiplayer to T4 is interesting...

 Originally Posted by LoUie: ( link to post ) 
The "Thief" players are really Singleplayer fans, not really any "gamers"
 Originally Posted by LoUie: ( link to post ) 
singleplayer is so 90s.. many ppl today cant se no fun in playing vs. AIs anymore.
 Originally Posted by LoUie: ( link to post ) 
SP is dieing out more and more, havent you wondered why?
Just... What the frack? I can understand this sentiment if you mean like playing multiplayer games with bots, but otherwise... That's a really narrow view of things. Especially when it comes to Thief games, you *really* can't compare the story-based singleplayer games to multiplayer competitive arena stuff. Ever heard of immersion? Kind of like interactive movies? Thief SP and MP should be completely differing experiences and products.

This is like saying "hey I only like electronic music so lol who the hell even needs classical instruments or rock these days". With all respect, get your head out of your ass and think in other terms than hardcore competitive multiplayer.
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Old 14th Apr 2010, 10:15 AM   #10
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games with AIs involved is dieing out since all games (already) and in a couple of years will be multiplayer only.. Thief/TUT is a quite "realistic" game since its unique and great genre, its a perfect example of wanting real human guards in a game like this. Pulling of nice moves and snatches isnt near fun vs. an AIs standing with his back towards you not having any idea of whats going on

Ofc there will be singleplayer games aswell, but those games are really "SP ONLY" (Thief was like that but not anymore, could really be done in MP) like point-n-click adventure games, The Dig for example of all genres when it comes to SP only.

 Originally Posted by NeuroFunkeR: ( link to post ) 
Louie, go play MMORPG, it has multiplayer only.
haha still missing the point i se.. it isnt worthwhile arguing about it with you for now..
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Old 14th Apr 2010, 10:19 AM   #11
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 Originally Posted by Bucchus: ( link to post ) 
While your suggestion about adding multiplayer to T4 is interesting...

Just... What the frack? I can understand this sentiment if you mean like playing multiplayer games with bots, but otherwise... That's a really narrow view of things. Especially when it comes to Thief games, you *really* can't compare the story-based singleplayer games to multiplayer competitive arena stuff. Ever heard of immersion? Kind of like interactive movies? Thief SP and MP should be completely differing experiences and products.

This is like saying "hey I only like electronic music so lol who the hell even needs classical instruments or rock these days". With all respect, get your head out of your ass and think in other terms than hardcore competitive multiplayer.
I understand where you're going with this, sure, and i agree to a certain level.. but we're not really mixing SP and MP together here.

Thief has always been a SP game, with its cool story and stuff. They should do a SP part and a MP part.. SP is SP only, the MP is MP only (with AI bots involved or whatever like in TUT)

This type of game is shown that it works very very good in MP, and wanting multiplayer in this is no where near strange since the point of the game is hiding, snatching loot and pulling of nice steals, how fun is that vs. dumb AIs tho, no really? Thats where the part where real human guards comes in the picture, since the game idea is to a certain level realistic.
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Old 14th Apr 2010, 10:34 AM   #12
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While I somewhat more understand what you mean after that clarification, SP and MP should still have their own confines. There's one little feature in SP games I've come to rely upon tons during the last years which just isn't possible in MP: Pause.

While I enjoy playing multi often, it's not always a possibility. Singleplayer games I can put on hold and answer the phone or stop the cats from tipping over the bookcase and that sort of thing, whereas in multiplayer I get screwed or I'm stalling the game for others. I'd imagine it's even more the same if someone has kids

To the point: Thief 4 having an intensive and deep multiplayer akin to Thievery would be great (if not really probably due to being a big developer wanting maximum profits from the masses), it still should not be done by gimping the "traditional" singleplayer side. Even worse if they spend manpower to make a half-assed shallow multiplayer just because it's trendy and good for marketing, which ends up taking resources from the singleplayer side - you will end up with having both factions pissed off, SP and MP.

I don't think in the future you could replace all singleplayer games with multi as well, the majority of online gamers are simply assholes I definitely wouldn't want in my Thief singleplayer experience
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Old 14th Apr 2010, 11:14 AM   #13
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 Originally Posted by Bucchus: ( link to post ) 
While your suggestion about adding multiplayer to T4 is interesting...







Just... What the frack? I can understand this sentiment if you mean like playing multiplayer games with bots, but otherwise... That's a really narrow view of things. Especially when it comes to Thief games, you *really* can't compare the story-based singleplayer games to multiplayer competitive arena stuff. Ever heard of immersion? Kind of like interactive movies? Thief SP and MP should be completely differing experiences and products.

This is like saying "hey I only like electronic music so lol who the hell even needs classical instruments or rock these days". With all respect, get your head out of your ass and think in other terms than hardcore competitive multiplayer.
Nicely said, i think we've done here! This thread may be closed now.
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Old 14th Apr 2010, 05:08 PM   #14
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 Originally Posted by NeuroFunkeR: ( link to post ) 
Nicely said, i think we've done here! This thread may be closed now.
 Originally Posted by Bucchus: ( link to post ) 
While I somewhat more understand what you mean after that clarification
lol.

anyway Bucchus ive had the discussion with many people before about the majority of gamers beeing assholes. its incorrect. the ppl that are "for fun players" and put their time into playing games (oh! only for the fun) somewhat gets a twisted picture and looks down on ppl that plays "hardcore", its a classic clash, from my experience, i often get a sucky attitude from these "for fun/casual"-players first. i assume you might be one of those? prejudicism sucks ^^

and no, im not talking about if they did MP in T4 it will somehow "ruin" SP.. i dont really think that has happened ever.... ;P

 Originally Posted by LoUie: ( link to post ) 
Thief 4 SP-only would be better than Thief 4 SP+MP (if the games were identicall even tho its a extra feature with MP)
anyone would like T4(SP+MP) over T4(SP-only). if not, you're some kind of MP hater, and thats some kind of an exception ^^

Last edited by LoUie; 14th Apr 2010 at 05:25 PM.
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Old 14th Apr 2010, 10:20 PM   #15
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 Originally Posted by LoUie: ( link to post ) 
anyway Bucchus ive had the discussion with many people before about the majority of gamers beeing assholes. its incorrect. the ppl that are "for fun players" and put their time into playing games (oh! only for the fun) somewhat gets a twisted picture and looks down on ppl that plays "hardcore", its a classic clash, from my experience, i often get a sucky attitude from these "for fun/casual"-players first.
Actually, I tend to agree with Bucchus that there are a lot of people with bad attitudes playing online. Not necessarily a majority, but it seems that there's a minimum of one per game/server. As for the hardcore/fun aspect, everything that isn't a clan match or doesn't have anything of monetary value riding on it is being played "for fun," imo. At the absolute best, it could be considered "practice" for a more serious match.

 Originally Posted by LoUie: ( link to post ) 
anyone would like T4(SP+MP) over T4(SP-only). if not, you're some kind of MP hater, and thats some kind of an exception ^^
There are people out there that don't like to compete with others. I've got a group of friends who outright refuse to play most games that aren't co-op or don't have a humans vs. bots option.
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Old 14th Apr 2010, 11:02 PM   #16
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 Originally Posted by LoUie: ( link to post ) 
i assume you might be one of those? prejudicism sucks ^^
Hehe, almost hit the mark but no. I know lots of hardcore gamers that I enjoy playing with (I do count myself in the casual class), the assholiness comment was a generalisation, I guess you could extend it to the internet all in all

It's somewhat about that many people gaming online just don't give a fuck about politeness most of the time, at least with random people. Thievery had a smaller community, it was a completely different thing. I rarely feel like playing something against/with.... pubbies (Oh no, elitist degrading term), I'd rather play with a private circle of friends instead whom I know I can trust to be fun to play with. (As an example from these forums, the TuF bunch seem to share a similar view)

What I meant with that is that if I'd want an singleplayer-like gaming experience but with actual people taking the roles of the opposition, I'd have to be sure they'd be people after a similar experience as I am. (This is referring to the thing about MP replacing SP games). Assholiness comes into play with these things somewhat in griefing but also in different pacings as some players are impatient, some are slower. Ugh, this is sounding more and more complicated to explain.

Thinking outside of twitch shooters and beat'em ups and hardcore RTS's: I used to play for years on a WoW Roleplaying server (incoming cybersex joke). It was supposed to be an immersive experience with people taking their time to create an atmosphere with the characters and such and sometimes it even worked like that. It was also a massive griefbait since there were so many ways to ruin people's fun and it wasn't enforced really in any way so... well these days the whole community there is dead due to the griefing and non-RP elements just flooding it out (do note that non-RPers would've had like a hundred realms to go instead).

Now this is what I'd compare to when you're going to replace SP elements with MP (I emphasize, story-based SP experiences, not games designed only for multiplayer competition and just played against bots - Thief games have so far been in the former category, Thievery in the latter). You're going to case the mansion as Garrett and then the guard in front of you starts bunnyhopping and blaring jap-pop out of his mic, then spamming meme of the week in chat. Then he gets bored and jumps off the balcony several times. I'd gladly take Benny and the gang over that, no matter how quirky the AI is.

I wouldn't want that game experience to be a gamble for whether or not I get someone who wants to play the same way. Even if you have friends with similar taste, you're still dependent on them playing at the same time if the singleplayer bit is completely dropped.

 Originally Posted by LoUie: ( link to post ) 
anyone would like T4(SP+MP) over T4(SP-only). if not, you're some kind of MP hater, and thats some kind of an exception
I doubt anyone's saying that the multiplayer would be a bad thing as such, the point is like I said in the previous post that it's a gamble resources-wise. Considering Eidos/Square-Enix, would you really expect them to put out something with the complexity of Thievery? Okay, pessimistic attitude. I agree that someone influencing the dev team if they decide to start making the MP would be a good idea... But I don't think a Thievery matchvid is the thing since those won't say a thing to people who haven't played it.

Edit contribution: Instead of the vid, things should be explained like "Think of Splinter Cell multiplayer, just bigger, broader, more detailed, and with a steampunk fantasy setting"
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Old 15th Apr 2010, 03:28 AM   #17
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Bucchus is right, I wouldn't swap being to jump online with my brother, best mate and other friends for some casual games for an elistist group or clan, we just have too much fun, even if we do suck!

Single player games often need form, structure to guide the story like a movie, so playing against the AI is required. Multi-player, I often see as something you graduate to once you've clocked Single player and have no further interest in playing it again - I quite often with RTS games never graduate because I'm so poo at them.

However, take Modern Warfare, fantastic SP experiance, short but sweet, at the end of it I've used all the weapons, developed some feel for the game and played the maps, I'm no ready for Multi-player - at least now I'm at a basic level for taking on humans!

Personally SP and MP I hold favor in equal measure, there's nothing funnier than trying to bodge together a team with the people here and going for it - then I'd quite happily sink myself into a game of penumbra and be scared out my wits vs. the computer.

If Theif 4 MP is anything like Splinter Cell Chaos Theory MP, it might be good that game had stealth - if it's like Double agent... maybe not so good, that was more running and evasion than stealth.
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Old 15th Apr 2010, 09:30 AM   #18
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well, fair enough.. that was quite a bunch to read.

i dont say i disagree, SP and MP are two totally different things and i know some ppl are alot into to SP games and so on..

Im just saying, TUT has shown that this genre works very very good (imo atleast) in MP, and id be so glad if they actually included MP in Thief 4, thats all im saying >.<

and the picture some ppl has that alot of hardcore gamers has a sucky attitude/arrogant because they are good in a game, i think alot of ppl is confusing "personalities" with beeing good in a game. like for example, if some pro-player doesnt socialize much at all in a tournament (irl) because he maybe has problems and doesnt like socializing, then its easy for ppl to maybe think (just because he's so good) he's arrogant. I were once good in a game, someone thought i were arrogant, but fact was that i were just hotheaded, which i could be now and then. i dont really think there are ppl that actually behaves arrogant just because they are good in a game.. that would be insane! =D

oh well, peace out.. i guess i can just sit and prey that they will add MP to Thief 4 :I
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Old 15th Apr 2010, 10:03 AM   #19
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 Originally Posted by LoUie: ( link to post ) 

oh well, peace out.. i guess i can just sit and prey that they will add MP to Thief 4 :I
i'll do the same, that they won't make thief 4 mp, maybe only as addon after a while.
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Old 15th Apr 2010, 11:36 AM   #20
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 Originally Posted by LoUie: ( link to post ) 
Im just saying, TUT has shown that this genre works very very good (imo atleast) in MP, and id be so glad if they actually included MP in Thief 4, thats all im saying >.<
I totally agree with this one (Thanks for the patience reading my walls of text - nice to have a good discussion!) We'll see how it goes... is Thief 4 actually still actively in the works? I've not heard about it in a while and so many projects seem to get cancelled these days.
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Old 15th Apr 2010, 11:44 AM   #21
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The only way you'd get a decent Thief multiplayer is if you could have 20-50 people to logged-in to a server guarding for 12 hours at a time, just on the off-chance that some punk might try to break in and steal the Duke's golden balls.
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Old 16th Apr 2010, 10:39 AM   #22
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I, for one, think MP is becoming more and more mainstream as time goes by.

You know, it was kind of sad, having bought a game recently and finding out that out of the six game modes, only one was SP.
More and more, game companies are appealing to the general audience, who treat gaming as a social event, a way to have fun with your friends.

Think about it. Recently, Modern Warfare 2 sold ridiculously well. Most people probably just skimmed through the SP campaign and then played MP with their friends. And when the game was in development, a great deal of thought was given at the MP part of the game (arguably more than the SP part).

It may be just me, because I'm naturally an SP gamer mostly. I was probably one of the few people that played Diablo I and II SP only, and when I tried MP, it totally ruined it for me.

But back to the Thief issue, Thief, in my opinion, is one of those games that is more of an "experience" than a challenge (do not confuse with movie, see Heavy Rain). You know, the Thief series wasn't overly challenging in comparison to other SP titles at the time. But it was deep and atmospheric, and just felt really cool to play through.

We've seen how Thief multiplayer can be done very well by Thievery. It was a great mod, competitively. But, as Nanj states:

 Originally Posted by Nanj: ( link to post ) 
The only way you'd get a decent Thief multiplayer is if you could have 20-50 people to logged-in to a server guarding for 12 hours at a time, just on the off-chance that some punk might try to break in and steal the Duke's golden balls.
Stealth is NOT a good multiplayer genre. Maybe competitively, yes, but fun-wise, no. Wheres the fun in breaking in to a mansion where you know 10 guards are waiting for you to break in a try to rob the place? It's just not possible in MP, but can be pulled of in SP very well with good AI. It makes for good competition, but not much fun, at least in my opinion. If I were developing something like that, I'd focus perhaps on co-op online. That's where I'd put my money and I think it would work spectacularly with the Stealth genre. Splinter Cell co-op is a great example of this.

I'd definitely like some sort of multiplayer mod or sequel to appear, but right now, I'd prefer it if Thief 4 was strictly SP. MP would steal development time and shift the focus of the developers which should be on Singleplayer to provide another worthy title in the Thief series.

Just my two cents though, I wouldn't be surprised if Thi4f would be focused on MP, with all the talk of innovation that Eidos Montreal has been spouting. Why can't sequels just be more of the same? Nothing wrong with that...
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Old 16th Apr 2010, 10:44 AM   #23
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Watch Eidos' innovation be to change the genre to real-time strategy.
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Old 16th Apr 2010, 04:24 PM   #24
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 Originally Posted by Sly: ( link to post ) 
who treat gaming as a social event, a way to have fun with your friends.
well it is. gaming is also like any other hobby in life. hobbies are a vitality in life, to have fun for the moment, it doesnt have to pay off later in life, thats not what hobbies are about, oh well, anyway..

 Originally Posted by Sly: ( link to post ) 
It may be just me, because I'm naturally an SP gamer mostly. I was probably one of the few people that played Diablo I and II SP only, and when I tried MP, it totally ruined it for me.
yeah, its because you're a SP gamer. playing a game and coming from SP would make the game suck in MP depending on genre.. and Thief>Thievery is def. one of those. i remember when i was new around here, i made a thread on the forums and whining about how unrealistic this game was in MP, i wanted more "realistic gameplay" asking ppl to patrol more for the feeling instead of camping one and same place from start for example but i kept playing it anyway and found it more and more fun.. getting more fun is a good example here:

 Originally Posted by Sly: ( link to post ) 
Stealth is NOT a good multiplayer genre. Maybe competitively, yes, but fun-wise, no.
actually, it is a good MP genre. and you got it wrong here imo, competetive IS what makes it fun. and as i were saying above, some games are ALOT more fun at high level rather than casual level, and thievery is, atleast a quite good example of this, but at the same time not, there were alot of TUT players in this community that didnt play 100% hardcore and found it fun anyway actually
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Old 16th Apr 2010, 05:01 PM   #25
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 Originally Posted by LoUie: ( link to post ) 
well it is. gaming is also like any other hobby in life. hobbies are a vitality in life, to have fun for the moment, it doesnt have to pay off later in life, thats not what hobbies are about, oh well, anyway..
I'd say it's different for each person. Some games I play to unwind. Some games I play for the story. Some games I play for competition.

 Originally Posted by LoUie: ( link to post ) 
actually, it is a good MP genre. and you got it wrong here imo, competetive IS what makes it fun. and as i were saying above, some games are ALOT more fun at high level rather than casual level, and thievery is, atleast a quite good example of this, but at the same time not, there were alot of TUT players in this community that didnt play 100% hardcore and found it fun anyway actually
I disagree. I remember my first games of Thievery a couple of years back, and the first time I played it, I just remember I had so much fun (once I had gotten used to the maps, controls,etc). Once I started playing the more "competitive" side of it in guild matches and tourneys, I gotta say, the games were more intense, but I wouldn't exactly say more fun.

I think some players may get a better kick out of a good competition, but the game itself being focused on high level gaming is very different from having fun. Let's say you had a game where you had to build stuff. Would it be more fun if you had to build against a timer? Again, some people would think so, and others would disagree.

It's down to what people think and why they play games. My point was just that games are too MP-centric these days and Thief 4/Thi4f may suffer for it.
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Old 17th Apr 2010, 04:22 AM   #26
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i agree with most of the stuff you just wrote, except for this..

 Originally Posted by Sly: ( link to post ) 
but the game itself being focused on high level gaming is very different from having fun.
this hasnt anything to do with "opinions". i can say this is factwise wrong. you actually dont seem to be a "fully" "hardcore" player yourself so isnt it abit hard for you to answer this 100% tho? cause i know alot of "casual players" focus so much on playing games casual and putting all the weight in "having fun" and then gets a twisted picture that hardcore gamers does "only play to win" (which is the point of everything, computer games, sports etc) and saying that when you play to win you're not having fun? false. and hardcore players wouldnt even play a game from the beginning nore play it hardcore if they didnt love doing it, trust me
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Old 17th Apr 2010, 05:47 AM   #27
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 Originally Posted by LoUie: ( link to post ) 
and saying that when you play to win you're not having fun? false. and hardcore players wouldnt even play a game from the beginning nore play it hardcore if they didnt love doing it, trust me
I don't know, maybe. I don't consider myself to be hardcore player in MP games, I'm nowhere near casual when talking about SP games, I try to collect everything, do everything the game has to offer, almost to a degree of OCD. And it sometimes spills over to some MP games, like Thievery. After playing the game for 3 years, it's kinda hard not to play it hardcore. But it's strange, I don't usually play it JUST to win, but I can safely tell you I know every single shadow on Aquatone I'm just speaking from personal experience, that when I play games just for the sake of playing them or for the first times, I seem to have more fun than when I'm playing competitively. There are exceptions though, like when playing Thievery and I managed to flawlessly win a game or pull off a clutch... It feels pretty good. Maybe even better than when I just played normally. But those moments are pretty rare, and maybe that's why I find comp gaming less fun; it's all about winning, and when you lose in a normal game, it doesn't even matter, but when playing MP comp... it's not very fun.

I guess it boils down to the question: Is competitive (not hardcore, I treat them as two different terms) gaming more fun than "casual" or spontaneous gaming?

I don't know, I would just say they are two different experiences for different people. It also depends largely on the game.
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Old 17th Apr 2010, 07:36 AM   #28
LoUie
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 Originally Posted by Sly: ( link to post ) 
I don't usually play it JUST to win..
Im not beeing malicious now when im saying you're wrong here. maybe you dont, but "playing for fun" and "playing to win" is two completly different things, so they cant "collide" with each other, just remember that.

EVERYBODY plays to win, no matter what it is since its the point of it. if you were to play MP and someone let you win, that wouldnt've been fun, would it?

everybody plays to win, and everybody plays because its fun, the other one doesnt interupt with the other. so if someone really plays to win a map extremely much competetivly, doesnt mean he's all of a sudden having less fun..
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Old 17th Apr 2010, 11:25 AM   #29
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 Originally Posted by LoUie: ( link to post ) 
.

EVERYBODY plays to win, no matter what it is since its the point of it.
noway, i play for fun, and if i win, that doesn't make me all to happy, and people who play to win, having lesser fun.
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Old 17th Apr 2010, 12:57 PM   #30
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/o\

you obviously didnt understand my post
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