Black Cat Forums   Alien Swarm - Steampowered Forums
Alien Swarm 2K4 - ThieveryUT
Black Cat Games - TTLG Forums

Go Back   Black Cat Forums > Thievery Forums > Thievery Discussion > Thievery Guilds

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 13th Apr 2004, 12:17 AM   #31
DarkProject
Member
 
DarkProject's Avatar
 
Registered: Jan 2003
Location: CA, USA born in Lithuania
Posts: 1,554
 Originally Posted by Yenzarill:
Gerome:
  • Using the "bugged" barrels to block the exit.
  • Bolting the slidedoor so it will not go open.
those shant be a problem in the new version
__________________
http://profiles.myspace.com/users/7360475
-=:ToB:=- / :]eDe[: Site: www.endarkend.net
-=:ToB:=-Forums: www.endarkend.net/phpbb/
-=:ToB:=-PayingSins (TUT MAP)- http://www.endarkend.net/downloads/m...oB_Payback.zip
DarkProject is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13th Apr 2004, 12:18 AM   #32
DarkProject
Member
 
DarkProject's Avatar
 
Registered: Jan 2003
Location: CA, USA born in Lithuania
Posts: 1,554
 Originally Posted by LaughingRat:
 Originally Posted by Yenzarill:
In any case, at least with a list people can form an opinion on these things. How can a guild disagree with a tactic if they don't know it exists?
They can't. That, I think, is what seperates a great team from a mediocre one. The great one will go out of their way to learn the intricacies of the game, advanced techniques, and how to use them. That guild deserves to win, while the other one doesn't.
agreed with LR
__________________
http://profiles.myspace.com/users/7360475
-=:ToB:=- / :]eDe[: Site: www.endarkend.net
-=:ToB:=-Forums: www.endarkend.net/phpbb/
-=:ToB:=-PayingSins (TUT MAP)- http://www.endarkend.net/downloads/m...oB_Payback.zip
DarkProject is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13th Apr 2004, 12:21 AM   #33
PhaeThorn
Member
 
PhaeThorn's Avatar
 
Registered: Jan 2003
Location: This pwnage was given to you by 1 of 3 mutated thievery players.
Posts: 2,229
 Originally Posted by The Dragon:
Isn't that pretty much what happened between Rodent (Representing .:m.) and Phae (Representing TSG)? And yet, I hear things didn't turn out the way the two reps agreed upon...
I myself didn't see that as a real agreement, for I didn't agree on anything myself. I did remember it and actualy expected it to truthfull, but it was not an agreement.

As for the "Guilds who don't know about the exploit deserve to be tricked by the exploit" lr says, I don't agree with that. It is my opinion that I would not want to win nor lose while using an exploit in a map that will affect the game dramaticly. These things shouldn't be used unless they agree on using the exploits. To me that is not 100% the same, but it comes close to saying cheaters are smart if they use hacks, and should therefor be seen as people who legaly made the game easier for themselfs. Some exploits are not counterable, some exploits are counterable with great difficulty and some exploits are easy to counter. Mainly for the first two groups this list would be good. Take for example the two things I listed below. You can't honestly say those things are legal and should be accepted and if you don't accept them you're a [insert a made-up curseword by some article]

PS: I see you made a mistake in his first post yenz. You placed the breakout "tactic" under the map gerome aswell. Plus I'd like to add two more things:

- Gerome, don't use the exploit so you can exit right when you trigger the evidence objective.

- Asylum, don't use the exploit so you can exit right when you trigger the body objective.
__________________
On demand this signature has been changed. I hope nobody was insulted or got harmed due to my signature. If this is the case, I'm fully responsible for the harm that was done. Do you feel harmed or you simply want a listening ear?

Call 0900-PHAE
PhaeThorn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13th Apr 2004, 12:34 AM   #34
DarkProject
Member
 
DarkProject's Avatar
 
Registered: Jan 2003
Location: CA, USA born in Lithuania
Posts: 1,554
i think bugs such as a vine arrow that can't be removed to block doors shant be allowed but stuff like the alt exit in theatre should because it isn't a bug..in fact it makes it more realistic if you think about it.
in real life the better fit person survives...some noob will only see a door which is guarded and make a run for it while a more skileld player will climb stuff and jump over crap and use his environment to it's full advantage so to not get killed...
hmm...ya..or course in real life there isn't a wall that blocks you from seeing the end of the physical world...
__________________
http://profiles.myspace.com/users/7360475
-=:ToB:=- / :]eDe[: Site: www.endarkend.net
-=:ToB:=-Forums: www.endarkend.net/phpbb/
-=:ToB:=-PayingSins (TUT MAP)- http://www.endarkend.net/downloads/m...oB_Payback.zip
DarkProject is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13th Apr 2004, 02:57 AM   #35
ZTx3
Member
 
ZTx3's Avatar
 
Registered: Jan 2003
Location: Vancouver,BC,Canada
Posts: 334
Put simple Guilds should just discuss these types of things before matchs.

There will always be those people that think using certain exploits are accpectable. I don't agree but thats my opinion and it is not going to stop people from using them really *shrug*. This is why games have beta stages (too bad thieveryUT hasn't been updated to fix these issues *bump,bump,nudge,nudge*)

you guys really gotta be thinking about new release when people start having to discuss bugs that can or can not be used
__________________
ZT
Aka Trunks0,TrunksOfSuffering
ZTx3 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13th Apr 2004, 05:02 AM   #36
FixXxeR
Member
 
FixXxeR's Avatar
 
Registered: Jan 2003
Location: UK, Manchester
Posts: 4,052
I think it should be as simple as, the 2 guilds discuss the map related bugs before the match in IRC and the convisation is logged. Then if both sides have agreed "okay no using the wall on theatre" or whatever then its logged that both partys accepted this, and therfore both sides get a 'fair' match. Problem here is, if both guilds do not or cannot agree to specific terms of another guild, what happens? I know TuF wouldnt agree to not being able to use the wall on Theatre, I'm sure we are not alone.

I think this would ruin the whole bloody game, as intel on special locations/ routes is part of the game and knowing just that little bit more than your opponent. I think the Turfwars has really brought out the darker side of TUT and the darker side of the guilds. It's great.
__________________
-TuF- Emptying clan servers of their own clan members since 2010
- Agg moderator campaign supporter 2011
- #2 of 3 LANers of the Apocalypse!
FixXxeR is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13th Apr 2004, 05:12 AM   #37
Machine
Member
 
Machine's Avatar
 
Registered: Jan 2003
Location: TuF Forums
Posts: 5,829
Yeah which is why i think only the tactics brought up by the opposing guild should be restricted, if a guild does not think of a tactic then tough cookies... shoulda thought of it! IRC logs.. well... I hate to say it, but they gonna need to be witnessed by somebody outside both guilds. so that they can save an independant version of the chatlog.... it's sad I know.

As for not using the wall to exit... SURE we'd agree!! (evil grin)
__________________
~TuF~
Machine is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13th Apr 2004, 05:43 AM   #38
Yenzarill
 
Yenzarill's Avatar
 
Registered: Jan 2003
Location: Ost Ra'Leur
Posts: 1,258
OK.

I'll just make my list.

Guilds can think about whats on it if they are going to play a game on one of the listed maps.

Horray.
Yenzarill is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13th Apr 2004, 07:16 AM   #39
PhaeThorn
Member
 
PhaeThorn's Avatar
 
Registered: Jan 2003
Location: This pwnage was given to you by 1 of 3 mutated thievery players.
Posts: 2,229
Let me add:

Warehouse - Using alternate exits other then the one on the ground.
Nostalgia - Using the bug exploit to exit, even if you just died.
__________________
On demand this signature has been changed. I hope nobody was insulted or got harmed due to my signature. If this is the case, I'm fully responsible for the harm that was done. Do you feel harmed or you simply want a listening ear?

Call 0900-PHAE
PhaeThorn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13th Apr 2004, 09:11 AM   #40
LaughingRat
Member
 
LaughingRat's Avatar
 
Registered: Jan 2003
Posts: 7,701
 Originally Posted by PhaeThorn:
As for the "Guilds who don't know about the exploit deserve to be tricked by the exploit" lr says, I don't agree with that. It is my opinion that I would not want to win nor lose while using an exploit in a map that will affect the game dramaticly.
World of difference, Phae. You're comparing apples and diesel locomotives. An installed hack is NOT part of the game, NOT available to every player, and NOT immediately detectable by other players in the game. These "exploits" ARE part of the game (whether you like it or not), and ARE available to every player. If you choose not to know the game you play well enough to know them, that's your loss. A lazy or inept player or team should lose to a player or team that's invested the time to know the game it plays intimately.

 Originally Posted by PhaeThorn:
Nostalgia - Using the bug exploit to exit, even if you just died.
Since the sewers don't work, that leaves only the hole in the wall, and over the gate as exits. No doubt you'd consider it "lame" if guards camped those locations too then, no? :roll:
LaughingRat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13th Apr 2004, 09:16 AM   #41
PhaeThorn
Member
 
PhaeThorn's Avatar
 
Registered: Jan 2003
Location: This pwnage was given to you by 1 of 3 mutated thievery players.
Posts: 2,229
Laughingrat,

I am not talking about the vine exit or any other exits. I am talking about thieves who use the "teleport exploit" if they are killed. They come back in the spawn because they respawn and as soon as they do, they win.

About the cheaters, maybe hacks are different indeed ... but what about the wall hack? Or the ghost exploit there was with the scouting orbs? Those ARE in the game and can be used by everyone.
__________________
On demand this signature has been changed. I hope nobody was insulted or got harmed due to my signature. If this is the case, I'm fully responsible for the harm that was done. Do you feel harmed or you simply want a listening ear?

Call 0900-PHAE
PhaeThorn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13th Apr 2004, 09:20 AM   #42
LaughingRat
Member
 
LaughingRat's Avatar
 
Registered: Jan 2003
Posts: 7,701
 Originally Posted by PhaeThorn:
About the cheaters, maybe hacks are different indeed ... but what about the wall hack? Or the ghost exploit there was with the scouting orbs? Those ARE in the game and can be used by everyone.
And weren't intended to be, and were fixed. Note that the devs haven't fixed all the other things you whine so incessantly about. The lead dev has even said some of them are there for a reason, to be used.
LaughingRat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13th Apr 2004, 09:28 AM   #43
PhaeThorn
Member
 
PhaeThorn's Avatar
 
Registered: Jan 2003
Location: This pwnage was given to you by 1 of 3 mutated thievery players.
Posts: 2,229
 Originally Posted by LaughingRat:
And weren't intended to be, and were fixed. Note that the devs haven't fixed all the other things you whine so incessantly about. The lead dev has even said some of them are there for a reason, to be used.
Alot of the exploits in the list are not intended aswell. They are a map exploit and are therefor harder to fix. The two exploits I mentioned before were just a part of the code, and therefor easy to fix in a patch.

By the way, if you'd look more carefuly, you'd see I am not whining in this thread. I am mentioning things people could consider lame and unacceptable. The fact that I myself find a part of the list lame has nothing to do with my post. I am trying to stay on topic here and create that list.

ps: Could you now please answer my question I asked you, two replies before this one?

ps2: Don't expect a reply soon, i'm going now
__________________
On demand this signature has been changed. I hope nobody was insulted or got harmed due to my signature. If this is the case, I'm fully responsible for the harm that was done. Do you feel harmed or you simply want a listening ear?

Call 0900-PHAE
PhaeThorn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13th Apr 2004, 09:43 AM   #44
LaughingRat
Member
 
LaughingRat's Avatar
 
Registered: Jan 2003
Posts: 7,701
 Originally Posted by PhaeThorn:
ps: Could you now please answer my question I asked you, two replies before this one?
I don't see a question, but I'll take a guess at what you mean.

About the Gerome and Asylum exits - yes, I think they can and should be used. In the case of Gerome it's almost onever going to be an issue anyway, with as unbalanced as the map is.

If you're referring to the Warehouse exit issue, then yes, it should be used. Hell that's not even an exploit, it's just an alternate route.

I'm not sure what you mean by the "bug exploit" on Nostalgia.

If that doesn't answer your "question", then please clarify what that question is, since it doesn't seem to appear in any of your posts in this thread, much less the one specifically mentioned.

Phae, believe me, we are all very sorry that this game doesn't live up to YOUR expectations of what it should be. Oh, we are very, VERY sorry indeed. But the fact is that the game is the way it is. You have a choice, you can either accept it the way it is and learn to play it well that way, or you can continue complaining about every little thing you think is wrong. The first will make you a better player. The second won't change what you think is wrong, and will only continue to make you unhappy, and make people think of you as a pathetic whiner. The first is a practical, pragmatic choice. The second is just self-indulgent whining and fantasy.
LaughingRat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13th Apr 2004, 10:05 AM   #45
FixXxeR
Member
 
FixXxeR's Avatar
 
Registered: Jan 2003
Location: UK, Manchester
Posts: 4,052
This is getting no one anywhere.

Yenzarill, I suggest you save your typing fingers and forget a list, it wont do any good. You would have to have all the guilds agree to it, which I highly doubt.
__________________
-TuF- Emptying clan servers of their own clan members since 2010
- Agg moderator campaign supporter 2011
- #2 of 3 LANers of the Apocalypse!
FixXxeR is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13th Apr 2004, 10:10 AM   #46
Machine
Member
 
Machine's Avatar
 
Registered: Jan 2003
Location: TuF Forums
Posts: 5,829
 Originally Posted by PhaeThorn:
They are a map exploit and are therefor harder to fix.
WHAT? Nah... putting a big dinging blocker on the wall to nostalgia is far harder than debugging a piece of code, stepping thru it stage by stage until you find the fault... wha? no. Mapping is easy compared to coding.

The "kill me and I'll respawn and win" CAN be countered... by eliminating all the other theif lives.. so they CANNOT respawn.
__________________
~TuF~
Machine is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13th Apr 2004, 11:19 AM   #47
PhaeThorn
Member
 
PhaeThorn's Avatar
 
Registered: Jan 2003
Location: This pwnage was given to you by 1 of 3 mutated thievery players.
Posts: 2,229
Machine: Map bugs are harder to fix, because it will give A LOT more MB's in the patch. You with your cable or some other kind of connection wouldn't care less, but the people on 56k would. It's harder to fix the map bugs, as in it will be harder to release a patch with maps only to change one thing per map. That counter you said to the die and exit exploit is useless and you know it.

And laughingrat, if you truely find the exit bug exploits on gerome, asylum and nostalgia ( Die with enough loot and you automaticly escape ) acceptable there is something wrong with your mind imho. I am not talking about the other bug exploits right now, but about those three things mentioned above. Those three are cheating just like the wall hack was. With the wallhack you still had to escape with the objects, this time you don't even have to do that anymore so you only have to do suicide runs on the objective and grab it.
__________________
On demand this signature has been changed. I hope nobody was insulted or got harmed due to my signature. If this is the case, I'm fully responsible for the harm that was done. Do you feel harmed or you simply want a listening ear?

Call 0900-PHAE
PhaeThorn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13th Apr 2004, 11:38 AM   #48
Machine
Member
 
Machine's Avatar
 
Registered: Jan 2003
Location: TuF Forums
Posts: 5,829
 Originally Posted by PhaeThorn:
Machine: Map bugs are harder to fix, because it will give A LOT more MB's in the patch. You with your cable or some other kind of connection wouldn't care less, but the people on 56k would. It's harder to fix the map bugs, as in it will be harder to release a patch with maps only to change one thing per map. That counter you said to the die and exit exploit is useless and you know it.
NO.. map bugs ARE easier to fix... but harder to RELEASE.

The counter to the "Die and Win" scenario is NOT useless.. it works and therefore has a use, it's difficult to achieve because if you kill the wrong theif you loose anyhow... but then.... why would you let yourself slip into that situation anyway? The BEST counter is to not let the theives get over TWICE AS MUCH LOOT AS IS REQUIRED to win... :-p
__________________
~TuF~
Machine is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13th Apr 2004, 11:46 AM   #49
LaughingRat
Member
 
LaughingRat's Avatar
 
Registered: Jan 2003
Posts: 7,701
 Originally Posted by PhaeThorn:
And laughingrat, if you truely find the exit bug exploits on gerome, asylum and nostalgia ( Die with enough loot and you automaticly escape ) acceptable there is something wrong with your mind imho. I am not talking about the other bug exploits right now, but about those three things mentioned above. Those three are cheating just like the wall hack was. With the wallhack you still had to escape with the objects, this time you don't even have to do that anymore so you only have to do suicide runs on the objective and grab it.
The bugs on Gerome and Asylum aren't "die with enough loot and you automatically escape", so that's not at issue. On both Gerome and Asylum, the odds favor the guards that the exit bugs don't break the map at all. They're still completely playable, and the thief team has enough else that it has to get done that the exit bugs aren't an issue. On Gerome specifically, it's hard enough for thieves to get enough loot and get to the exit that it almost never comes into play. It certainly is not cheating.

On Nostalgia, with the loot respawn bug fixed, the automatic escape can't even happen anymore, if I'm not mistaken. The loot requirement is 1500, and there's less than 3000 total loot in the map, so at 50% loot drop, a single thief CAN'T have enough loot to use such a bug. It may be possible to do it with one thief already in the exit with a lot of loot, and another with enough to meet the goal if he drops and respawns there, but getting that set up is getting into being more difficult than just winning by conventional means. Add to that that most servers are running MORE than 50% loot drop, and you have an alleged exploit that is a non-issue anyway.

In all cases above, you're whining about something that almost NEVER is an issue, and when it is, it only serves to balance other gameplay issues in the map.
LaughingRat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13th Apr 2004, 12:02 PM   #50
LaughingRat
Member
 
LaughingRat's Avatar
 
Registered: Jan 2003
Posts: 7,701
 Originally Posted by TheMachine:
The BEST counter is to not let the theives get over TWICE AS MUCH LOOT AS IS REQUIRED to win... :-p
Actually, I'd go so far as to say that it should be a win condition for thieves on EVERY map if any single thief gets twice the loot requirement for the map. Any guard team that lets that happen should lose.
LaughingRat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13th Apr 2004, 04:58 PM   #51
Lurox
Member
 
Registered: Jan 2003
Location: It's been too long. I'm gone now.
Posts: 2,229
Of course I read it, LaughingRat. What I saw was adressed at tactics that the scrub thinks is cheap, not game bugs.

Bah, anyway. Alright, since game bugs are legal now, I'm gonna go on the servers and rage people with them. Good idea, folks.
__________________
JM
Lurox is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13th Apr 2004, 05:17 PM   #52
LaughingRat
Member
 
LaughingRat's Avatar
 
Registered: Jan 2003
Posts: 7,701
 Originally Posted by Lurox:
Of course I read it, LaughingRat. What I saw was adressed at tactics that the scrub thinks is cheap, not game bugs.
The specific tactics used as examples arose out of bugs in the game Street Fighter. They were things that advanced players found you could use to gain an advantage over an opponent. At first decried as "cheap" and "lame", eventually people found ways to counter them, and even make them dangerous to use.

 Originally Posted by Lurox:
Bah, anyway. Alright, since game bugs are legal now, I'm gonna go on the servers and rage people with them. Good idea, folks.
FFS, grow up, Lurox. There's a world of difference between deliberate raging and merely using an unintended feature of a game.

In the former, you're setting out specifically to piss people off and ruin their game. A rager won't limit himself to just "exploits", but will do things like block teammates into rooms, and coordinate with a friend on another team to be the last two players left, and then just sit and run out the clock - truly lame shit. He won't care about winning or losing.

In the latter, you're merely using advanced knowledge of how the game works to play more effectively. It may in fact piss people off, but that's not your intent. They get pissed off because they're being outplayed, and most online gamers' fragile egos can't handle that. Some people get pissed off in online games just for being killed, in a game where that's the whole point.

Not a thing listed here can't be countered. Learning to do so makes you a better player. Learn to do it and advance, or sit and whine while other people pass you by, your choice.
LaughingRat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13th Apr 2004, 08:10 PM   #53
FixXxeR
Member
 
FixXxeR's Avatar
 
Registered: Jan 2003
Location: UK, Manchester
Posts: 4,052
How about a "FFS, why are we still talking about this!?"

God Damn.

Yenz will make his list then make a thread, no one will listen or agree, more flames and another pointless discussion.

Dont spend all your flame allowance all at once guys.
__________________
-TuF- Emptying clan servers of their own clan members since 2010
- Agg moderator campaign supporter 2011
- #2 of 3 LANers of the Apocalypse!
FixXxeR is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13th Apr 2004, 09:53 PM   #54
BrokenArts
Administrator
 
BrokenArts's Avatar
 
Registered: Jan 2003
Location: Dallas
Posts: 4,712
This thread is going no where, *twitches nose* *sigh*
I'll close it in the morning.
BrokenArts is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14th Apr 2004, 04:58 AM   #55
Machine
Member
 
Machine's Avatar
 
Registered: Jan 2003
Location: TuF Forums
Posts: 5,829
 Originally Posted by BrokenArts:
This thread is going no where, *twitches nose* *sigh*
I'll close it in the morning.
... We're discussing the use of tactics, I for one am enjoying this debate ...
__________________
~TuF~
Machine is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14th Apr 2004, 07:52 AM   #56
BrokenArts
Administrator
 
BrokenArts's Avatar
 
Registered: Jan 2003
Location: Dallas
Posts: 4,712
Oh you are huh, gee I didn't know that Mac. :p
All, I have seen lately is a lot of bitching, (and in not just this thread too). With no concrete answers drawn from all this.

Keep it simple, since all of you are made aware of these tactics, just discuss the rules, regulations, what to use, what not to use, and be fair about, *BEFORE A MATCH, that way it is fresh in everyone's mind. Keep it simple. You guys analyze sheit to death sometimes, Yeah, it is Thievery, but come on, it's just a freakin game.
BrokenArts is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14th Apr 2004, 02:36 PM   #57
Chainsaws
Member
 
Chainsaws's Avatar
 
Registered: Jan 2003
Posts: 2,424
All I see lately is too many threads getting closed

What else do you expect people to do in an online community? People are going to argue. Unless it's in a bug reporting or a suggestions forum just let them get on with it unless they post offensive material. If they don't get their opinions out of their system they're just going to bottle it up and take it out in the game.

On another note, I agree with Dalai and I can officially say at this point TuF won't be agreeing to not use any of the tactics mentioned above so don't bother asking. If we use a tactic against you and you're too *special* to use it against us, your loss (unless, of course, it breaks the game).
__________________
One of the three LANers of the Apocalypse!
-
The Unforgiven Casual Gaming Group - New Members Welcome
Chainsaws is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14th Apr 2004, 02:41 PM   #58
Dalai
Project Lead
 
Dalai's Avatar
 
Registered: May 2002
Posts: 2,369
Btw I made a new smiley:



Dalai is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14th Apr 2004, 02:47 PM   #59
Chainsaws
Member
 
Chainsaws's Avatar
 
Registered: Jan 2003
Posts: 2,424
 Originally Posted by Dalai:
Btw I made a new smiley:

Makes me want to cry...with laughter! :lol: :lol: :lol:

That r0x!
__________________
One of the three LANers of the Apocalypse!
-
The Unforgiven Casual Gaming Group - New Members Welcome
Chainsaws is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14th Apr 2004, 03:15 PM   #60
Machine
Member
 
Machine's Avatar
 
Registered: Jan 2003
Location: TuF Forums
Posts: 5,829
C'mon sing with me!!

OOOO we don't want no scrubs!
Scrub is the guild who ain't evar gonna play with me!
Sat in the passenger side of his guild servers ride trying to holler at me!
OOOO we don't want no scrubs!
__________________
~TuF~
Machine is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 02:58 PM.


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.