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Old 25th Apr 2005, 07:37 PM   #31
Biohazard
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I'm going to throw my 2 cents into this discussion even though I wasn't directly involved.

As you all know I don't really play Thievery anymore, but I still show up every once in a while. The reason for this is not because I don't enjoy playing the game, but rather the community that has become all about winning at all costs as apparent here. Call me whatever names you want to label me with, but I'm not willing to use exploits to win a game. I don't demand that others don't use them either, I just stop playing with them. Tournament play has become a matter of what team is more ruthless to take the crown by using underhanded tricks and the map exploits that would generally be considered cheating in public servers. Thieves don't even bother with objectives, just kill all the guards (dev problem imo). The fun that existed in TUT has left, leaving only a handful of players dedicated to being better than their peers. This is just sad.

I've been playing the last two weeks in the servers under aliases, and don't think I want to play on public servers anymore. If someone (LM) is hosting a private server with people that want to play to have fun, I'm game. For those of you who are still only interested in getting the win, enjoy TUT. You've taken what originally was the friendliest community on the net and turned it into another Counter-Strike, where winning is everything.
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Old 25th Apr 2005, 08:42 PM   #32
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Hey!! Will you just stop it?! Will you just hold on a minute?! Look at you guys! Fighting on the Malaka-Laka Board! You should be ashamed of yourselves! Back in the driveway we were nothing! Now we've risen to the highest levels, ...and you're throwing it all away. If you've forgotten what Thievery means to America, you have only to look at this board! The Malaka-Laka Board of Trust. Don't you see what we have here? A game where guys with bad backs and bad knees can ...get together on the same field and compete as guys that are all goosed up on steroids. And more than anything, isn't this game about gettin' together with your friends and just havin' a good time? I remember. I remember a long time ago I didn't have anybody. And you guys took me in. I guess that's why it kills me to see you like this. If we can't be friends, then the heart and soul are out of this game. Certainly out of me. And I know I'll never get that back again. God, we have sullied the waters of the Lagoon of Peace! I'm begging you, for the love of our Caribbean brothers, dudes, stop this madness!!

please stop lets get back to the community we once were.
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Old 25th Apr 2005, 09:11 PM   #33
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Amen brotha! It be seemin dat duh camunity needs a healin! Do you need a healin brotha?? Do you need a healin?? I think we all need a healin!! Awwwoohhhhhh yeah! I feel Jesus! I feel em! Can yah feel em????


LOOK! I even made a get well soon card!
Code:
----------------
|get well       |
|soon           |
|thievery       |
|community      |
|               |
-----------------
A day in the world of cyberspace...phew!

Last edited by okih-imus; 25th Apr 2005 at 09:21 PM. Reason: Read HS post
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Old 25th Apr 2005, 10:01 PM   #34
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First off thanks to Dragon for the apology. I've taken it as genuine, I appreciate it and from a personal standpoint I'll give you every opportunity to show that you really mean it.

To Bio: I don't know how you can possibly match up public games to top level tournaments, but you appear to have done exactly that. Pub games are still about fun for us, we try new things and screw around as well as playing seriously. This is all old crap, it's an endlessly repeating cycle. People got cut about firebolts so they left public play. People couldn't handle DMing so they left public play. Those that chose to adapt stayed and became better players because of that, and the game is more balanced than ever before. It's become much deeper on a strategic level.

Did we exploit a map in the latest TurfWars? Yes, we did. For a single round that map became unwinnable. Were serious exploits used against us? I consider the hardest thing about guarding Stronghold the inability of guards to know where the plans are. That changed in our game - all three guards knew the location of the plans, through an exploit - but our thief team won anyway.

And so on it goes. The fact is, the serious exploits we find in these games should be noted and then fixed. The spider vents altered, the aqua lift made far less buggy, the chests and safes on skelts and stronghold fixed. In a macro sense we're doing this game a favour by finding things to fix. There is no way this kind of thing happens on public play, and if you choose not to play on crkz or brodys I can only put that down to not being able to handle the skill level of the average player, because there isn't the team co-ordination nor the desire to pull off hardcore exploits.

The community is fine, for some reason you've all forgotten that we had flamewars and arguments just as much "back in the day" as we do now. People got caught exploiting tournament rules... other people got angry. Shit happens.

I hear the doom predicters and nay-sayers talking about how "this is the end of competitive Thievery" "oh the game is going to die" and similar rubbish. Most of the problems and nasty exploits will be fixed in the next revision. If people want to run purist tournaments, the Mockers will be in there. We will definitely participate in the next TurfWars, no matter what structure it takes.

The community at large is hardly about "winning at all costs". Hell, our TurfWars plan didn't even involve winning at all costs. I've said it before - if we wanted to WIN AT ALL COSTS, we'd be milking the rules and all the exploits we know in this game for all they were worth. You'd be playing the Mockers on an Australian server, at 3am in the morning, and you'd find the aquatone vator hacked three times in a row.

We could have used software mode to see things we shouldn't see, we could have screencheated using TS, I could have lanned with Rodent, ffs. But we did none of those because we are not like that. We weren't the first team to exploit, we won't be the last; but at the end of the day TurfWars is only improving in quality of rules and matches and there will be another tournament yet.

P.S. Interesting you should mention Counter-Strike. An Australian team beat 3D (America's best) back in the day because they threw smoke grenades OVER the spawn wall on de_cbble. By the time the Australian team assaulted the bombsite, it was smoked out and the defending Americans could do nothing but try and retake the site. It worked a charm, and was fixed in the next revision of the game. Just like all these exploits we've found could be fixed, and Tournament play improved.
There are not that many map-specific exploits that can guarantee a match win. They are all fixable.
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Old 25th Apr 2005, 10:24 PM   #35
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Fucking Hell yeah is all I can say to that.
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Old 25th Apr 2005, 11:24 PM   #36
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 Originally Posted by Aggamemnon:
Fucking Hell yeah is all I can say to that.
ditto
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Old 26th Apr 2005, 04:36 AM   #37
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 Originally Posted by Biohazard:
Thieves don't even bother with objectives, just kill all the guards (dev problem imo).
Just an obversation on the state of the game at the moment, for those he might be interested.

Just one point, DM tactics were reasonably minimal in this tournament not what you suspect.
Mockers played 17 rounds in all.
1 was won purely by DM.
2 were played with the intention to DM and then either failed or the win came by objecitves.
In the remaining 14 rounds, the thief teams played with the intention of an objectives win, kills and kos along the way were for survival or in an attempt to weaken the guards by killing off AI.

I say the 'thief' element of the game is still alive in thievery.

So, the tournament failed, but that dosen't mean it wasn't enjoyable while it lasted playing with a close-nit team against strong opposition was a privelege.

Keep it real yo

Last edited by TafferBoy; 26th Apr 2005 at 05:03 AM.
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Old 26th Apr 2005, 09:29 AM   #38
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I think maybe dming is less frequent against good guarding teams whereas online you are playing against ppl who are pretty mediocre (e.g. me)?
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Old 26th Apr 2005, 11:28 AM   #39
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I dont see the Relations, Grank, sorry, i dont.

1. You ll find some Postings from me in the Thread of the TW Tactics.
Read them. Go read them. Do you see any Relation to that Things that have spoken about "we let sneak someone in our Team aliasing"?
No Sir, you wont find. I ve not seen and read that.

You Sir knows nothing about my Forum Interests or Behavior. Just the Fact i am present with some Postings, that do relate to the Posting direct above my own, lets you guess, guess, i would have seen or read the other Things. No Sir, i did not.

My Forumbehave is nothing like that, I never enter a Forum and "lets see what is here all to find". I only look the Threadsubjects, and read if there is something interesting to me.
Now tell me, what might have been interesting to me on the TW Tacs? I dont run a TW Server for the TW Tourneys, i dont be in any Team that do TW Matches. Why should i do read all? About 10 Pages backwards? What for?
So i entered the Thread and told "go, use one of my servers for practice". That does not mean, i ve been reading about 10 Pages backwards, it is just meaning, i had a Reason to enter this Thread and give my Words.

It is sad, that you dropped my Access to your Logs, it is sad, that you asked me to drop your Access from THAB. This because, both has nothing to do with TW.
Your Logs and my THAB are fully for the Thievery Admins Serverwide IPdatabase. Now how does your view on me conflict the Support to do a Serverwide Circle, where all Admins support each other? And then you shoudl drop my Access from your Adminforum, too, not? If break Bridges, break them right.

You Sir, has jugded me on nothing else, but "it seems, that you....". This is not your Thing Grank. You should know me better. This thing is a typical Thing of Mr. Uber TH. It is the same Way it went. "look, seems like, no questioning about, judge, off".

I asked you to read the Thread again later. You should notice, that i have nothing to do with that Story. The Fact i have access, is not a Reason to judge me. The Fact i did post, is not a Reason to jugde me. Then go and read my Posts. You ll find nothing in Relation to the "plan Alias", which should support my Word to you, i have not noticed, seen, read, understood anything in this Direction.

I am very disappointed, that you think that on me, we had enough Contact to each other, so you really should know it better.
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Old 26th Apr 2005, 11:37 AM   #40
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Brody this is not a discussion for public view. If you want to discuss this further please feel free to email or instant message me.
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Old 26th Apr 2005, 11:42 AM   #41
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That makes hope. oki, will do
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Old 26th Apr 2005, 05:47 PM   #42
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First I would like to apologize to NLDW for my negligence the past couple weeks of the tournament, I have been damn busy. Thanks to wildbill for trying to making this tournament last as long as it did.

As far as DM? I find that I usually dm more than sneak, but sneaking is much more effective, only when i'm in the mood though.
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Old 26th Apr 2005, 10:12 PM   #43
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 Originally Posted by Convict:
I think maybe dming is less frequent against good guarding teams whereas online you are playing against ppl who are pretty mediocre (e.g. me)?
Yes it does depend on who you are playing with and against. Also it depends on what map you are playing.
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Old 2nd May 2005, 02:05 AM   #44
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 Originally Posted by Grank:
Brody this is not a discussion for public view. If you want to discuss this further please feel free to email or instant message me.
.......
.......
.......
forget it
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Old 2nd May 2005, 11:14 AM   #45
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Firstly, there is too much text for me to read through it all, particularly when I am not fully aware of the goings on of recent times. I have read Grank's post which seems to give a nice overview and some other posts also, bits and bobs. If I have missed anything then sorry.

This just strengthened my views on this 'community'.

When is an apology not an apology? When those apologising will recommit without so much as blinking an eyelid. This is all about winning to you - the exploits, the conspiring on ts and otherwise, the methods of play.

The fun is lost in the game.

Look inside yourselves and you will see that all you want out of the game is to win. It seems to me you want people to 'worship' you and say how brilliant players you are. That is quite sad.

The thing is, it seems (I'm not sure the entire extent of the people) all the people I would expect. Merely because of their attitudes before. The thing is, nothing will happen about it. Nothing of proper consequence that is. Such is why many people such as myself have left. Thievery has gone so far downhill that now, it appears to have started digging.

I have said this over and over, but you still don't accept it. To most of you, it is all about winning. You will probably deny this, but these actions show it again. You are only lying to yourselves really.

If anyone else had done this, I would say that they would have been banned permanently. However because of who it is, and because of what ties they hold within the community, they can do what they like with little consequence. In fact many are admins etc. It is abuse of power really. The community is very corrupt and there is no need for it. It is very sad that people bother to even do these things in the first place - do you have no lives or something?

I will most probably get insulted now in some way, or merely discredited. Fair enough, I wouldn't expect any less. Just try to grow up and stuff really. I don't care what you think of me, so say what you like.

Cheers, Daniel
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Old 2nd May 2005, 12:25 PM   #46
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LOL, how old are you citizen?
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Old 2nd May 2005, 02:40 PM   #47
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 Originally Posted by Citizen Erased:
I will most probably get insulted now in some way, or merely discredited.
 Originally Posted by Daniel:
LOL, How old are you Citizen? :p
*shakes head
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Old 2nd May 2005, 03:43 PM   #48
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 Originally Posted by daniel:
LOL, how old are you citizen?
Does it matter? He's stated his opinion, as his opinion, and done it eloquently. He's also made some very good points.
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Old 2nd May 2005, 04:03 PM   #49
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The saddest part is, when Citisen spells it out so impartially, I truly feel like a dirtbag for my contribution to the said atmosphere.

Well, at least I'm not ruining any games since I've stopped playing.
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Old 2nd May 2005, 05:22 PM   #50
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 Originally Posted by Citizen Erased:
If anyone else had done this, I would say that they would have been banned permanently.
Nah. There weren't any server rules broken by most of the offenders -- hence they can't be banned from the servers. Let me assure you that there was no slack granted to anyone in this because of their position in the community.

 Originally Posted by daniel:
LOL, how old are you citizen?
If you're going to judge comments by the age of the author, you're also going to have to discount everything I say.
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Old 2nd May 2005, 06:23 PM   #51
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 Originally Posted by WildBill:
If you're going to judge comments by the age of the author, you're also going to have to discount everything I say.
I Don't think that will be necessary Bill. You have plenty of credibility as far as I'm concerned. ...Daniel on the other hand...
Does this mean I get more credibility than anybody else?
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Old 2nd May 2005, 06:57 PM   #52
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Well, I play to win. When I'm in a track meet, soccer game, wrestling match or what have you, I'm gonna try my absolute best to win. I have fun doing these events, but I'll also be trying to win.
Okay, imagine a fat person trying to run cross-country. He does NOT play to win obviously. I'm a very athletic person in cross-country, so I play to win. I think this same reasoning can be applied to video games. Some people are good enough to compete and they love it. There are others who just aren't good enough to compete but they love it also. Let them both play.
Take chess for example, last Saturday I competed in a tournament and got second place. Well yes, I of course wanted first place but things just didn't turn out well for me. I was tied in the end for first but because my opponent had beaten me in a previous round, I was named second. I still had great fun though, I got $45 for getting 2nd and I got to show off mah skillz ;-)

 Originally Posted by Citizen Erased:
Look inside yourselves and you will see that all you want out of the game is to win. It seems to me you want people to 'worship' you and say how brilliant players you are. That is quite sad.
Doooooooode. It's the glory of it! Just like sports! Just like the olympics! And people love heros! Take Longnames for example, he was like an early Thievery hero.

I personally love the satisfaction that I head out to do something and I accomplish it.
I'm a guard. I see a thief. I MUST kill that thief.
We all know who the good players are. When we ko/kill a good player, it leaves us feeling like we've hit a higher level, like we've improved. Just like beating someone tough in a race.

 Originally Posted by Citizen Erased:
the exploits, the conspiring on ts and otherwise, the methods of play
Competition is good. What's corrupt? What's being said on TS? Is there some kind of evil sick world I don't know about?? O_o;!!
What methods of play? DM or Obj win, they're both accepted.

Ah well, that's just what I think at this moment. I hope I've made my points in a friendly manner.
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Old 2nd May 2005, 07:02 PM   #53
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 Originally Posted by okih-imus:
Doooooooode. It's the glory of it! Just like sports! Just like the olympics! And people love heros!
There were no winners in this situation. Only varying degrees of loserdom. And the bottom rung was set as low as I've ever seen it.
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Old 2nd May 2005, 07:09 PM   #54
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True, but at least we can all learn from this mistake.
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Old 2nd May 2005, 09:05 PM   #55
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 Originally Posted by LaughingRat:
There were no winners in this situation. Only varying degrees of loserdom. And the bottom rung was set as low as I've ever seen it.
Sad but true, just read this sad missive today. Tarnished quite a few people I would have never thought. But just seems the way this game has been going for a while now. Which is why I hardly ever play anymore.
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Old 2nd May 2005, 11:37 PM   #56
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The comments about the Tournament are fair enough; although this is the first major Thievery tournament ever held that suffered this fate (the total count involving 2 and a half TurfWars and 3 Tournaments of Darkness).

But I've said this before - how this comes back to public Thievery for some people here I just don't know. Newsflash: people are competitive in player on player competitions. What am I supposed to be, shocked? The more competitive people joined Guilds, others simply chose to remain in pub - and I have absolutely no problem with that and no lack of respect for people that play the game less seriously than I or others do.

BUT. Everybody here has played to win AT SOME LEVEL. If you didn't, you'd sit in thiefspawn cracking yourself repeatedly for 40 minutes. And although CE has made some good points in his initial post, he's also made the mistake of using it as justification for his bagging public Thievery. The reason you left is because you couldn't handle the game in its entirety, CE, and both of us know it. A few things I remember you complaining about: firebolts, guards camping with certain weapons, DMing; you even aliased as "wanker mockers" once (EL OH EL) because you couldn't handle us playing the game as it is and not being restricted by our own mindsets.

This game has been pushed by the players, no doubt. The developers could never have forseen what people would discover with the game mechanics, with the maps, and people pushed those limits and found some very interesting things. Other people found ways to counter that. Thievery is an amazingly dynamic yet INCREDIBLY well balanced game. When people with 400 ping can even hope to compete against those with 50 ping in an online game you know you've got a gem.

There have been many people to complain about Thievery - you've had your purists ("Lame! Guards should patrol like real guards!"), your straight-out complainers ("DMing is so lame take out the blackjack/broadheads!") and a host of people who were simply UNWILLING to learn how to counter things and just let their mouths run about how certain people, certain tactics, certain situations were "lame". Others learnt. And learnt how to thief gerome, how to guard folly, how to play the game. You're free to leave the game if you don't like it, but don't dare blast the game for a shortcoming that is squarely on your end.

Honestly guys, from day one Thievery has been an online game where - gasp - people compete against each other to win. All this thread acts as is a soapbox for people that haven't played pub regularly for over 6 months to come and have a stab at the "elite" players, like it's somehow a crime to have learnt how to play the game well. And if this Tournament proved anything, it's that the best players clearly hold back in the public arena from the hardcore exploits and the game ruining plays. Because we don't get enjoyment out of completely slamming opponents using game bugs.

The Mockers themselves have received a number of genuine apologies from players as a result of the events of this tournament. We're over it. I find it rather amusing that other people are using this to bag public (read: unrelated) Thievery. If you don't like the game, don't play the game. But please, don't bag the players of this game who are a majority of good people because you don't want to play the game as the game is, and you need to invent rules and make value judgements on what is "lame" and what isn't, when 99% of tactics are counterable if you are willing to learn.

edit

 Originally Posted by LaughingRat:
There were no winners in this situation. Only varying degrees of loserdom. And the bottom rung was set as low as I've ever seen it.
Okih's comment was about pub, anyway - but if you do want to discuss the Tournament, I didn't think it was a complete write-off. We played some good, intense matches at a high level. The videos of Flats/Stronghold Mockers v Forsaken are on www.thievery-customs.com for those who haven't seen them.
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Old 3rd May 2005, 01:09 AM   #57
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 Originally Posted by Biohazard:
I'm going to throw my 2 cents into this discussion even though I wasn't directly involved.

As you all know I don't really play Thievery anymore, but I still show up every once in a while. The reason for this is not because I don't enjoy playing the game, but rather the community that has become all about winning at all costs as apparent here. Call me whatever names you want to label me with, but I'm not willing to use exploits to win a game. I don't demand that others don't use them either, I just stop playing with them. Tournament play has become a matter of what team is more ruthless to take the crown by using underhanded tricks and the map exploits that would generally be considered cheating in public servers. Thieves don't even bother with objectives, just kill all the guards (dev problem imo). The fun that existed in TUT has left, leaving only a handful of players dedicated to being better than their peers. This is just sad.

I've been playing the last two weeks in the servers under aliases, and don't think I want to play on public servers anymore. If someone (LM) is hosting a private server with people that want to play to have fun, I'm game. For those of you who are still only interested in getting the win, enjoy TUT. You've taken what originally was the friendliest community on the net and turned it into another Counter-Strike, where winning is everything.
Since we let you "throw my 2 cents into this discussion" Iím going to throw mine too if you donít mind.

I know its water under the bridge but you are the main reason why I left this community. Refusing to put back a match we had agree to put back 2 times for your team. Refusing to play a fair match 2 on 2 since we had two players MIA. No, the WIN was more important, well you got the win but no match where played " how fun is that ? "
So when you say "the community that has become all about winning at all costs as apparent here." You started this trend yourself way before anyone else so donít be an hypocrite please.
Other than that I must say I agree with you, very very good points. Too bad that only half of what you said makes sense.

[Mordinated unwarranted personal attack]


Edit : fuck it with thos admins you cant even state a simple fact anymore and is was not even rude. So fuck it i'm not missing any of you, bitching all the time.
So im reposting what i was saying abot machine in a rude way now :
Machine told me once to get a fucking life only because i was playing TUT alot, who need one now ?
Him and everyone on this forum,
special thkz to the admins.
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Old 3rd May 2005, 01:27 AM   #58
monolithAU
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 Originally Posted by Citizen Erased:
This just strengthened my views on this 'community'.
Look inside yourselves and you will see that all you want out of the game is to win. It seems to me you want people to 'worship' you and say how brilliant players you are. That is quite sad.
Thievery has gone so far downhill that now, it appears to have started digging.
I will most probably get insulted now in some way, or merely discredited. Fair enough, I wouldn't expect any less. Just try to grow up and stuff really. I don't care what you think of me, so say what you like.
If you think that the players of TUT are a 'community' (implying you are skeptical of the use of that term for 'us') and you have left said 'community', and you don't care what we think of you, why should we take any of your comments even half-seriously (even though you may have made some valid points?). Like any other community, online or otherwise, there are those who break rules, those who stick to them, and the rest of us mortals somewhere in between. It does not make us any less of a community, just a diverse one like any other. Given how easy it is to cheat online these days, we have a remarkably good bunch of people, who for the most part (despite their alleged lust to win at all costs) do the right thing.

I think you have made it pretty clear that you don't want to be a part of our community. Good. Go (again)
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Old 3rd May 2005, 04:21 AM   #59
Mordengaard
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Okay, time to reiterate Mode's post regarding forum rules. DhaThief, I've edited your post to remove an unwarranted personal attack. This whole thread is running fairly tense, so watch yourselves people, 'cause I sure am
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Old 3rd May 2005, 05:19 AM   #60
TafferBoy
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Smile

lol thanks Mord.

I'll like to comment on CE's initial post.
An interesting read and good points CE. However I disagree with parts of it. Competitive play just Ďdoes ití for some people and doesn't Ďdo ití for others. Itís not for everyone.
When this tournament started up I'm sure most participants were as eager to win it with their team as I was. Most people taking part like to win, this is pretty straightforward; the elation of winning is satisfying and fun. That being said, it doesnít mean that its the only source of enjoyment to be had from a game.
In fact, although disappointing, Mocker's first move loss to Mutants on Breakout was still a good experience in many respects. Generally, the Mockers applauded the interest taken by its members in the match, the effort of those that played and their opponents for beating them. We took an opportunity to try to improve tactics and game play.

We like to win, true. However we do appreciate that winning isn't everything and I urge you to consider these views and perhaps understand the motivations behind those who you currently have a dim view of.
I firmly believe that those involved in this unfortunate incident initially, at least, held the best of intentions.

And in a fittingly wankerish note:
Don't tar everyone with the same brush, this 'community' may have its problems, but this community is still made up of individuals.
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