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Old 24th Apr 2005, 08:26 PM   #1
WildBill
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The end of Turf Wars III

Mutants and Forsaken apparently have no interest in a fair and competitive tournament. Down to two teams, it really wouldn't be much of a tournament.

Mockers and NLDW can split the victory, I suppose -- although "the two remaning teams who didn't cheat" isn't a great inscription for a trophy.

Advice for any teams that want to try a trick like this in future tournaments -- make sure that the guy running the tournament doesn't have access to the forum where you discuss your devious plans.
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Old 24th Apr 2005, 08:29 PM   #2
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Well done to the fair players.
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Old 24th Apr 2005, 08:31 PM   #3
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So, we gonna have a flamewar about how the Mockers finished with the most maps?
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Old 24th Apr 2005, 08:33 PM   #4
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What can you say?
A tournament of this size dosen't work without co-operation of the players.
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Old 24th Apr 2005, 08:49 PM   #5
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Good gomes. I look forward to reading this thread in a weeks time when it's likely to full of nice things said about Mutants and Forsaken.

This thread is prime breading ground for flames, annouce it, get your digs in and move on.
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Old 24th Apr 2005, 11:00 PM   #6
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Go team! and gj nldw, i didn't think you would last as much as you did.
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Old 24th Apr 2005, 11:56 PM   #7
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I don't know what to say or where to start.

Machine I now know your not the only one to blame for this. This was something the entire TuF team came up with. You getting caught was just the catalyst for the rest of the information to come out. So to catch everyone up to what happened, here is the quick story.

TuF came up with a plan to split their guild into two teams for this tournament. Phae, Broday and maybe Agga were aware too. They would work together, conspire, with their sights on M. That is completely within the rules of this tournament, yes. Is it fair? The problem with this is it is unfair to all other teams in the tournament.

Their was discussion in their private forum of throwing matches to each other to optimize their chances of winning this tournament. Again this is within the rules of this tournament but is it fair?

Then they crossed the line completely when they decided that they would share players. This then blurred the line completely between teams. This is when the true "TEAM" appeared. There wasn't a team Foresaken and Mutants. It was all just one team all along, TuF.

Now I'm sitting here thinking about how certain people bitched and whined about M breaking Aquatone. At the time I found it amusing because at the time these same people used map hacks like on Spider which is almost as bad. These same people bitching and complaining about M, HAD CONSPIRED TO BREAK THE WHOLE FUCKING TOURNAMENT!

After having read the posts that were made in their private forum its clear this was all done to beat M. What the hell happened to something even close to a fair game?!?

Dragon I thought you had better judgement. Even after being caught you claimed this had more to do with Gabe not being able to play than trying to win at all costs. This doesn't pass the bullshit meter now that I know what you guys had planned and who you were targeting.

Machine I thought you were smarter than this. It is one thing to bring a better strategy to the table and out play your opponent than what you pulled.

Phae you always bitch and complain about exploits and then you encourage and conspire to break a whole tournament? If that isn't the climax of hypocrisy I don't know what is.

Brody you think me banning Mach isn't fair? Brody you knew about this and as a voice of reason and honesty didn't say anything to stop it? You didn't try and make this a fair tournament?

Agga WTF are you thinking being involved in something like this?

For the rest of you on these teams. Great job on ruining the tournamet and then rather than gather up some pieces of your integrity and play on fairly you go and quit.

All of you owe all of the people who played in this tournament your deepest apologies for wasting all of their time.

As for me, I wish I could ban each and every last one of you but that is just my temper talking. I've lost a lot of respect and trust for all of you involved. Mach please remove my admin access to your TS. Brody you can remove me from THAB and I'll be removing all your access to my logs.

Mach will be unbanned in a week.

-Grank
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Old 24th Apr 2005, 11:57 PM   #8
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Well *I* thought it was a good tourny. So there.

Re-edited for granks post.
I have no access to tuf forums (bar public and a private games one for ultima) so, make of that what you will.

I had no knowledge of the play with mach switching for gabe, until I got back from (yet another) busy weekend, so again, dunno.
I can't really say if I think it's right or wrong as it's done now I don't really carte, I wasn't involved in any planning, but again, I thought it was in the rules. Guess not eh.

As for the tactic of playing off with mockers and forsaken, yes I did know there was some over-all plan, based off the loss of aquatone against m, not entirely sure as I again wasn't very involved in the whole, "I'm pissed at the way we lost" thing. As everyone knew, along with mach, phae, tuf etc etc
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Old 25th Apr 2005, 01:20 AM   #9
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 Originally Posted by Grank:
You didn't try and make this a fair tournament?
-Grank
It was obvious, that this tournament isn't going to be fair.
That is why I left, better than bitching or joining the "unfair" side.
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Old 25th Apr 2005, 02:58 AM   #10
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Exclamation Read.

I'll just jump in and remind everyone of the Forum Rules. Discuss this all you want, just keep flames and personal insults out of the threads, and discuss like behaved adults (which basically means think twice before you hit that submit button).

Thank you.
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Old 25th Apr 2005, 03:23 AM   #11
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Brody played no part in this, he arranged servers for practice, tho he had access to the thread he had not the time (with 2 newborns to take care of) to understand exactly what was happening.

Please leave him out of this.

I'm happy to see that our private forums have been flashed about to just about everyone now, why not just post them here? Guess we deserve it though eh? I thought we had come to an agreement Wildbill.

Mutants do not equal TuF Mutants are TSG, CTG, TOB and TuF members combined. It was I who put the idea to them. If you want to blame somebody blame me. A win for Mutants would have been a win for all members involved, the alliance revealled and credit given.

On m2's post, I personally will not be replying to either of these threads, if you want to discuss or throw more insults, use the PM button.
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Old 25th Apr 2005, 03:30 AM   #12
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 Originally Posted by TheMachine:
Brody played no part in this, he arranged servers for practice, tho he had access to the thread he had not the time (with 2 newborns to take care of) to understand exactly what was happening.
That and his command of Engrish! Joking Brodyman!
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Old 25th Apr 2005, 04:16 AM   #13
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Grank,

I ve need to learn, that Decisions, done in the first Minutes of any Action, are too emotional. Emotions blind our Eyes.

I really only can hope, you will read the Thread again and again at any Time later, when you ve more Distance to it and then you will "see" Things different.

I tell you, i ve not noticed, any wrong goin on. I ve thought about it, since we ve just IMing on MSN today. I did remember a post in the Thread, i ve edited. I only hope, that ur Version of this Thread is old enuf, to see i tell u Truth:

Watch my posting on Sun Apr 24, 2005 8:34 am. I ve asked there, if i can enter a Team for the TW3, should again someone miss, i would be there to fill the Whole. Then i saw the Postings following me "i quit" " i quit" and so on, then i ve edited my Posting, cuz it was senseless and stupish now.

See what i mean? I really have not noticed, that any Wrong was goin on, Grank. I really and only can hope you will see that.

As for me i have no Reasons to lift any Access you have. Use the THAB or not, that is up to you. To have Problems and / or Mistalks to each other, does not mean to drop your Accesses, no. For me it does mean, to speak and clear about it.

That i am more interested.
Plz read the Threads again anytime and you will see, i ve not noticed those Things. I usually only reply on Things i have understood (or guess i have), only on those Things i can react.
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Old 25th Apr 2005, 09:20 AM   #14
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I don't owe an apology to anyone in this community Grank.
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Old 25th Apr 2005, 09:21 AM   #15
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 Originally Posted by TheMachine:
I'm happy to see that our private forums have been flashed about to just about everyone now.
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Old 25th Apr 2005, 09:31 AM   #16
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 Originally Posted by TheMachine:
Mutants do not equal TuF Mutants are TSG, CTG, ToB and TuF members combined.
Yeah i'm not in ToB man, i'm not in a guild anymore. I wasn't in ToB since january, or december Before the tornay started.
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Old 25th Apr 2005, 09:37 AM   #17
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 Originally Posted by FatRatHead:
It was obvious, that this tournament isn't going to be fair.
That is why I left, better than bitching or joining the "unfair" side.

Don't start that again, FRH. You're giving rodentdom a bad name. just because your team failed to do ANYTHING in planning a match, and suffered a forfeit as a result, doesn't make the tournament unfair. You suffered perfectly just consequences for your (in)action.
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Old 25th Apr 2005, 10:03 AM   #18
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Not really

My problem was elsewhere. It was alright with me to forfeit the match, I didn't like the "you (NLDW) lose a map, they (don't remember who, but certainly someone) don't" rule.
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Old 25th Apr 2005, 10:09 AM   #19
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 Originally Posted by TheMachine:
Mutants do not equal TuF Mutants are TSG, CTG, TOB and TuF members combined.
Which ToB member(s) is(are) among the mutants?

 Originally Posted by TheMachine:
It was I who put the idea to them. If you want to blame somebody blame me.
The other members had the option to at the very least step down. If they still played knowing this, then they are as quilty.
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Old 25th Apr 2005, 10:41 AM   #20
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 Originally Posted by Thebos:
Which ToB member(s) is(are) among the mutants?
No ToB member is affiliated with the mutants in any way. I just wanted to make that clear so we don't get dragged in to this argument.
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Old 25th Apr 2005, 10:56 AM   #21
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 Originally Posted by FatRatHead:
My problem was elsewhere. It was alright with me to forfeit the match, I didn't like the "you (NLDW) lose a map, they (don't remember who, but certainly someone) don't" rule.
Their opponents decided that even though they were late, they would play them anyway. Wildbill allowed this. And, of course, the most important rule of the tournament was that Wildbill's say was final.

For future tournaments, if there are any, I would suggest the following rule or some other definitive equivalent be at the top of the rules list:

Rule 0: <Tournament Administrator's Name> is the supreme arbiter of the tournament. He/She reserves the right to hand down judgement on any action taken as part of this tournament, including judgements that contradict and overrule the rules as laid out below. This means if something isn't explicitly mentioned in these rules, or you are at all unsure of legality of some action you should ask about it first.
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Old 25th Apr 2005, 12:06 PM   #22
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 Originally Posted by FatRatHead:
My problem was elsewhere. It was alright with me to forfeit the match, I didn't like the "you (NLDW) lose a map, they (don't remember who, but certainly someone) don't" rule.
The other team made an attempt to schedule their match. NLDW said not a word, even upon being prompted to do so. Night and day.

 Originally Posted by immortius:
For future tournaments, if there are any, I would suggest the following rule or some other definitive equivalent be at the top of the rules list:

Rule 0: <Tournament Administrator's Name> is the supreme arbiter of the tournament. He/She reserves the right to hand down judgement on any action taken as part of this tournament, including judgements that contradict and overrule the rules as laid out below. This means if something isn't explicitly mentioned in these rules, or you are at all unsure of legality of some action you should ask about it first.
That rule was already present.

 Quote:
"WildBill"]VII - I am the sole and final arbiter of this tournament. Any issue will be resolved by me, and my word is final.
Granted, it's not as explicit as your version, but it's really not ambiguous.

 Originally Posted by immortius:
For future tournaments, if there are any, I would suggest the following rule or some other definitive equivalent be at the top of the rules list:
At this point, I think anyone who would try to run a tournament in this community would have to be an idiot. This community doesn't seem to have the ability to go more than a month or two without inflicting some major drama on itself.
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Old 25th Apr 2005, 12:25 PM   #23
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 Originally Posted by TheMachine:
I'm happy to see that our private forums have been flashed about to just about everyone now, why not just post them here? Guess we deserve it though eh? I thought we had come to an agreement
I had sent a copy of that thread to Grank almost as soon as I finished downloading it -- partly for evidence in his bannings, and partly so that somebody reputable in the community would have a copy. I didn't intend for it to spread beyond that, but apparently it has.

Since the response from both your teams in this affair has been to retreat from one set of lies to another trying to defend an indefensible position, I thought the truth needed to be out there.
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Old 25th Apr 2005, 01:01 PM   #24
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 Originally Posted by Radamanthus:
Also, I only owe an apology in this community to each Aggamemnon and PhaeThorn, as I have been a complete jackass to them in the past.
Don't worry, I'm more of a jackass than you are
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Old 25th Apr 2005, 03:38 PM   #25
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Machine and I are sorry for taking part in screwing up this tournament. We are sorry for our ridiculous behavior and some of the ludicrous choices we have made in the past year, which have led to some long-lasting barriers between us and other members in this community. If you can believe this, we never set out to break this tournament or unfairly compete in any way. Our responses to the idea of this tournament were quite sincere…I felt too busy and overwhelmed, Machine wanted to play with a different group of friends. My decision to join this tournament was a completely arbitrary one made after a brief discussion with Chalrif, Gabriel, and LoToR. We did not join the tournament to unbalance the scales…we had every intention of crushing Machine’s team, actually.

Two moves into the tournament, I believe, things changed, and our teams agreed that if we could help eachother win, then everyone would share the glory. Yet tactics and behavior grew out of hand, and for that, I apologize. But even moreso, I am disgusted with my own behavior on these boards. The real need for an apology lies there. Thus, I am posting this apology, not any other member of Mutants or Forsaken.

I am sincerely apologetic that I have continued flames on these boards...not only these past few days but in the past year. Recently, especially, I've said some things that I regret and actually feel humiliated by, but most prominently I have done things for which I deserve nothing but to hang my head publicly in shame.

There are people in this community who are role models - some of them I befriended, some of them I did not. Some of them I chose to, somewhat unconsciously, anger and attack. My strong and stubborn personality clashes with others, I know that. And there was a time, earlier, when I still managed to maintain the balance and uphold respect and honor. Yet the past year has seen me digress, and I see clearly that I have not only injured myself, but I have helped to injure this community.

For those of you who know me, and especially those of you who hate me, you should know that a humbling apology like this isn't something I often make. But to not recognize where I've gone wrong, the things I've done and said...would be foolish and immature. I used to take pride in my maturity both in the game and on the boards - now it's a joke. Perhaps some of it was Teamspeak, and the familiar environment that allowed me to feel more comfortable, or perhaps it was just me. But for whatever the reason, my behavior has fallen to an undisputed and deplorable low. For this, I apologize.

For my words, and most notably, my hypocrisy, I apologize. God, thank the Lord I am writing these words...because it's the only way I will be able to step into the present.

To LaughingRat and Wildbill: Thank you for being two of the most intelligent, wisest, and most tell-it-like-it-is people I know in this community. I really do look up to you both...that's why I pursued you for recruitment for over a year, Bill. LaughingRat, repeatedly I have burned you, and repeatedly you've done nothing but show me respect. I am sorry for burning you guys again. I am sorry for urinating on your trust and giving you the proverbial finger. I understand that again, I have severed a relationship. I hope I can build it back.

To Shug, Rodent, and Gladius: Herein lies the height of the aforementioned digression. I have thrown attacks, lies, and hypocrisy in each of your faces...then wondered why we fail to get along. I do want you to know that repeatedly I have looked up and screamed with frustration in this situation, because I wanted so badly to form a relationship with you guys similar to that I share with other Thievery players. But stupid, stupid me. Something about me...I will leave out tiny bits of the truth and hide them even from myself...like the fact that I have given you guys no real reason to like me. I hope that someday, in the future, you will be able to accept this apology and see it as genuine, but damn...I do not blame you if you don't. I have wronged you as people, and wronged you as gamers, and for that, I am deeply sorry.

To the rest of the community: I'm sorry for bringing such a negative and superior attitude to this game. I have lied to myself and tried to blame others for my spurts of anger: Rodent, Impulse, Industrialism. But really, it's all me, baby. I stopped playing this game for fun long ago...and that's when I stopped having fun. That's when Thievery became a chore, and my impossible task was to conquer a Player vs. Player environment. How I expected to do that...god knows. But I am realizing that this goal was in the back of my mind all along, pushing me in one direction or another. I would scold others for the very behavior I exhibited, and never realized that my signature meant nothing.

I have been walking around with my eyes closed, ignoring my own behavior to the point where I have blurred the line between right and wrong. This isn't about Turf Wars III, this isn't about winning, losing, matches or tournaments. This is about me, and me accepting that I have wronged this community - a tiny group of players, most of whom I would like to consider friends. Sadly, I know that I will be always Unforgiven, suitably. But I hope, that with time, I can show some of you that I mean every word I have said today, and am now stepping forward into a new online persona, a persona that reflects who I really am.

Because what you've seen isn't it. What you've seen is nothing more than the postings of a child with the intelligence to speak coherently and play decent Thievery. This is my first post, perhaps in more than a year, as an adult on-line gamer.

To the future.
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Old 25th Apr 2005, 03:44 PM   #26
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 Quote:
At this point, I think anyone who would try to run a tournament in this community would have to be an idiot.
Well said, LR.

Thanks for trying, Bill. It seems that you're not the idiot required for the job. Good luck running organized event, folks. I know for one that I won't be participating.
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Old 25th Apr 2005, 04:07 PM   #27
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One other thing:

Thank you, people like Shug, Daniel, LaughingRat, Bill...for being bigger people than I thought possible. Thank you for remaining more mature than I could have imagined. Hopefully I will be that person as well, down the road.
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Old 25th Apr 2005, 04:09 PM   #28
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Well said, Dragon. I'd like to believe it all. You have to understand though that trust, once lost, is very difficult to regain. The words are nice, but in the end, it's your actions that will make what you've said mean everything, or nothing.
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Old 25th Apr 2005, 04:16 PM   #29
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I know. It is a challenge that, by posting and voicing it, I have bound myself to. I will use all of my power to instill truth into that post.
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Old 25th Apr 2005, 04:55 PM   #30
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Not to interrupt discussion or anything, but I would like to say that the matches I took part in were quite fun.
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