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Old 27th Mar 2005, 01:48 PM   #31
PhaeThorn
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 Originally Posted by WildBill:
Traditional blocking of the elevator is easy to counter. If the thieves are careless enough to allow the guards access to the top of the elevator, that's their tough luck.
* edit *

I see you editted your post now. But still read through my post

It seems to me that you're not really understanding the problem. Correct me if i'm wrong though. While normal blocking ( making the elevator bump up again ) is indeed quite easy to counter, this is a different situation.

The guards, sitting in the top hole on the side, was blocking the elevator from coming down. It is too high to shoot the guards, arrows will come down again. There is also no way of going up, except with the elevator. So basicly there is no counter for that as you mentioned above. Sure, there may be some things that prevents the guards from going up in the first place, I don't know that at this time. But once they're in place it is NOT counterable.

As said, correct me if I'm wrong but I think you misunderstood it if you say there is a counter for the block. This is no mere chokepoint, it's breaking the map completely. It's like stealing the exits away from the thieves so they can't get out even if they wanted to.
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Old 27th Mar 2005, 01:51 PM   #32
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The issue is that the guards can currently use the lower elevator button to get up to that blocking position on their own. That will be fixed. Guards will still be able to block there if the thieves are careless, but that's their own fault then.

I didn't realize you'd responded when I edited that -- thought I caught it before anyone read it. ^_^
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Old 27th Mar 2005, 01:59 PM   #33
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 Originally Posted by WildBill:
The issue is that the guards can currently use the lower elevator button to get up to that blocking position on their own. That will be fixed. Guards will still be able to block there if the thieves are careless, but that's their own fault then.
Alright, you've heard my opinion and I heard yours. You're the one with the final voice in the tournament here so we'll leave it at this.

One last thing though, I think you'll have to ask the mockers how they got that elevator up to be certain it will be fixed in 1.5. No normal firebolts + mine/whistler can get them to use the button with the the server patch installed. There is another way they could have gotten that elevator up though. If that way is possible ( It still needs some testing ) then the problem can NOT be fixed by fixing the buttons. I'll contact you about this other way later
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Old 27th Mar 2005, 02:01 PM   #34
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 Originally Posted by PhaeThorn:
Alright, you've heard my opinion and I heard yours. You're the one with the final voice in the tournament here so we'll leave it at this.
Thanks. I'd like it if the Mockers wouldn't use this since it takes the fun out of the matches, but I said anything goes and won't go back on that.

 Originally Posted by PhaeThorn:
One last thing though, I think you'll have to ask the mockers how they got that elevator up to be certain it will be fixed in 1.5. No normal firebolts + mine/whistler can get them to use the button with the the server patch installed. There is another way they could have gotten that elevator up though. If that way is possible ( It still needs some testing ) then the problem can NOT be fixed by fixing the buttons. I'll contact you about this other way later
I haven't had a chance to test any of the changes since the initial 1.4 release, so I don't know how it currently works. I had some ideas, but it looks as if they might have already been fixed. Send Dalai your ideas -- he's the one who knows how it works in the end, not me.
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Old 27th Mar 2005, 02:09 PM   #35
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Okay, we've got it figured out. Should be fixed in Thievery 1.5.

Even as it currently stands, though, it's not a guaranteed win.
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Old 27th Mar 2005, 02:28 PM   #36
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 Originally Posted by WildBill:
Even as it currently stands, though, it's not a guaranteed win.
If the single counter to this trick isn't used right at the start of the map, then it is a guaranteed win. Glad to hear it's being fixed.
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Old 27th Mar 2005, 02:30 PM   #37
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 Originally Posted by TheMachine:
If the single counter to this trick isn't used right at the start of the map, then it is a guaranteed win. Glad to hear it's being fixed.
Then use that right at the start of the map -- it's only hard the first time.
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Old 27th Mar 2005, 05:27 PM   #38
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I agree that the tactic is almost uncounterable, but the ingenuity of discovering such a 'lame' tactic and the relative skill involved in its execution isn't something that all teams could've come up with. We did debate about whether we should use it or not, and we figured that we were within our rights under the rules, although we obviously expected changes to the rules or the map because of it. And to be perfectly honest, we didn't want to use it unless we felt pressed.

I don't want the issue to put a damper on the efforts of Louie, Shug and Rodez; our guards perform extremely well in that round and the Mutant's efforts to DM failed so it never looked like coming down to a 'win by time' situation anyway, the practical effect on the match was the remove the option of the objectvies win, only after did the mutants realise that a DM win would've been also impossible, barring a sportsmanlike swan-dive into the abyss.

As for how we got the vator up, i would prefer to PM the method to Bill if he is interested than post it on the forums. For obvious reasons.

The other problem with the lift, being unslashable while riding it up, is confined to players of moderate to high ping. I've been slashed on the lift before by AI (who have sub-100 ping) and players with sub-100 pings. I believe it is a online issue not a map issue and could only be solved by slowing the lift down.

On a final note, imo 'game-breaking' tactics will have to be discussed on a case by case basis. Rather than adding a rule which simply says no 'game-breaking' tactics, because this might lead to many allegations and so on with regards to a whole range of exploits and tactics.
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Old 27th Mar 2005, 05:40 PM   #39
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I'd just like to say........Gladius I love your sig! Funny as feck!
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Old 27th Mar 2005, 06:31 PM   #40
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While the tactic was slightly "lame", as Bill said, only the people on our team realized what exactly happened and how difficult it was. No less than three different manoeuvres were pulled, each with huge margin for error (especially for the man blocking off the lift itself) and failure would have resulted in death. Restarting the process would have been time consuming and cost potentially more lives. High risk, high reward. We deliberately held off until the third round before doing it - we wanted good matches too - but we've been done before by unforseen strats and decided we would hold aqua at all costs.

I honestly believe the only reason nobody has ever used a game-breaker strat before is because nobody has ever been able to do it.

We'll agree to NOT using this again in future matches on aqua, for the sake of the tournament.
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Old 27th Mar 2005, 06:37 PM   #41
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The ability to get the lift up int he first place has been discovered, me and phae worked on it tonight, so we'll be sure to distribute the idea to every tom dick and harry we find. Getting up is VERY easy.

We'll be using this on the publics to SHOW that Aqua is broken, people may well use the counter, which as long as there is a theif dedicated to it, and that theif is VERY lucky then the guards can be hindered at best. High risk? with 2 guards, this is simple to execute, you've been playing long enough to place yourself on the edge of a cliff. The other guard just presses a button! The first action is again, simple, you can aim can't you?

To be frank, we've crossed the border for exploits now, I had 5 great high quality games this morning, and the last one smacked of desperation, Mutants didn't DM because we knew what you'd done, we didn't clear everyone out because we KNEW is was futile, you know we could have done because we did it before.

The last game, wasn't played, we've crossed into this doing things to win, not PLAYING to win, because the exploit requires no playing, your not besting anyone in thievery, your sat on your ass in a hole.

I was more dissapointed than anything, the exploit was known, and you said yourself you knew of the consequences.

A week from now you'll have people crying out loud on this map, it'll become like breakout and nobody will play it. The fix is allready done I believe Phae did one this evening.

As far as the tourny goes, it appears you have your map, and well played on spider and the first 2 Aquas.
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Last edited by Machine; 27th Mar 2005 at 06:48 PM.
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Old 27th Mar 2005, 06:47 PM   #42
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 Originally Posted by Shug:
I honestly believe the only reason nobody has ever used a game-breaker strat before is because nobody has ever been able to do it.
This is hardly a game breaking strategy -- it's easily countered with anticipation. If you'd pulled this the first round I'm fairly confident they'd have prevented it in the following rounds.

 Originally Posted by Shug:
We'll agree to NOT using this again in future matches on aqua, for the sake of the tournament.
While I appreciate that, realize that you're under to obligation to do so.

 Originally Posted by TheMachine:
We'll be using this on the publics to SHOW that Aqua is broken, people may well use the counter, which as long as there is a theif dedicated to it, and that theif is VERY lucky then the guards can be hindered at best.
 Originally Posted by TheMachine:
A week from now you'll have people crying out loud on this map, it'll become like breakout and nobody will play it. The fix is allready done.
Machine, that's beneath you. You know that it's broken, and that public servers in no way compare to tournament play. The fix is already done and will be in Thievery 1.5, as you well know. If you insist on raging like this, I'll ban you myself.
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Old 27th Mar 2005, 06:59 PM   #43
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 Originally Posted by WildBill:
This is hardly a game breaking strategy
 Originally Posted by WildBill:
Machine, that's beneath you. You know that it's broken
Which one is it Bill? I argue, not rage. I'll not provoke without a reason.

I doubt we will show everyone, the consequences would be dire beyond belief, taking Aquatone out the cycle completely because of it. I guess I just got a big swig of bitterness there, not entirely agreeing with the overall verdict on things n stuff. But, the show continues opinions are known now.
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Old 27th Mar 2005, 07:03 PM   #44
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 Originally Posted by TheMachine:
Which one is it Bill? I argue, not rage. I'll not provoke without a reason.
It's not game breaking in iterative competitive tournament play with organized teams. On public servers, it's essentially raging.

 Originally Posted by TheMachine:
I doubt we will show everyone, the consequences would be dire beyond belief, taking Aquatone out the cycle completely because of it. I guess I just got a big swig of bitterness there, not entirely agreeing with the overall verdict on things n stuff. But, the show continues opinions are known now.
I can see that you're bitter, and understand even though I don't agree. Don't take this out on unrelated innocent players, though, or you will be banned.
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Old 27th Mar 2005, 07:04 PM   #45
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So your saying that using this is a bannable offence on public servers? (Or on whatever server you have power over? is that Crackaz?)

-edit : convo over. spoke with bill, IM if discussion required. -
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Old 27th Mar 2005, 07:06 PM   #46
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 Originally Posted by TheMachine:
So your saying that using this is a bannable offence on public servers?
I'm saying that doing this repeatedly with the intent of ruining games to make a point about an exploit that's been fixed is raging, and I'll ban anyone doing that.
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Old 27th Mar 2005, 07:36 PM   #47
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Get your hand of it machine, there are a heaps of exploits that people don't use on public servers in order to have better games, public servers are for casual games. for example, I've rarely seen the vent exploit on spiders used in a public game, nor have i ever thought of using it myself in a public game, you also rarely see excessive stacking, chest pincushioning, or exiting exploits used intentionally. These are easy to do, but that dosen't mean players will use them.

If you are saying that your basically 'gave up' in the last round, that is sad to hear, because it discredits those you faced in the match, saying that they only killed you because you 'weren't trying', when you obviously were. Poor sportsmanship, if you had indeed wiped everyone out convincingly and only the exploit prevented your victory I might be a little more sympathetic.

The show goes on.
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Old 27th Mar 2005, 08:31 PM   #48
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Also to be fair to us, you didn't DM us (which I take to mean a win by DM) at any point as your post suggested Mach. The round you won was via objectives.
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Old 27th Mar 2005, 08:32 PM   #49
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 Originally Posted by TafferBoy:
I don't want the issue to put a damper on the efforts of Louie, Shug and Rodez; our guards perform extremely well in that round and the Mutant's efforts to DM failed...
Only got one thing to add here, besides well played mockers, playing better on the day is, that I did in fact have everything required to win, (I know shock horror I had objectives) but was unaware the lift had been taken/blocked and was pissing about there for a while, we actually wasn't going for a pure DM that round.

I've got no complaints about the lift (save the fact I like a OMG agg obj won! once in a while) because I didn't come into the tournament blind, and understand and accepted the rule on exploits.
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Old 28th Mar 2005, 04:24 AM   #50
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As I said, discuss in IM. Your argument is flawed Gladius, as no other exploit to my knowledge effectively makes a map unwinnable. Even the spider trick.
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Old 28th Mar 2005, 05:47 AM   #51
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Well my post was trying to say that people don't use certain exploits on public servers. I was responding to your claim that people would use this exploit all the time and that aquatone would have to be taken off the map list etc etc. Players already avoid using some of the 'harsher' exploits.

If there is a flaw I can't see one. In fact, the larger the exploit the less likely it is to be used, little exploits are used all the time, greater ones are used rarely or much less often, I would say a 'map-breaking' exploit would be used never on pub.
Also what is wrong with discussing things here? Although there isn't really much more to discuss really.
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Old 28th Mar 2005, 10:28 AM   #52
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I am throughly confused, now, as to whether or not use of this exploit will be permitted during the tournament.
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Old 28th Mar 2005, 10:45 AM   #53
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Well I guess there is no rule against it now Rad, at least I haven't read anything 'bout changin' them, so my guess it's still legal but lame, and if anyone wants to use it it's their choice.
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Old 28th Mar 2005, 10:51 AM   #54
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 Originally Posted by Radamanthus:
I am throughly confused, now, as to whether or not use of this exploit will be permitted during the tournament.
It is permitted.
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