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Old 29th Apr 2008, 03:11 PM   #1
industrialism
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Industrialism's NB Idea's (29/04/08) more coming soon!

“Night-Blade” vs. “the Dark Mod”

After four years of playing thievery, I’ve decided to collect thoughts and give my point of view and offer idea’s, I strongly suggest anything not all ready listed here (you another person reading) in this community should post, even if it’s your view point or argument, to help the development team with the Night-Blade project.
Before you go through this Information which I’m going to keep adding to… I would like to take this opportunity to point out the obvious, both UT3 and Doom3 have net code, one focusing on multiplayer offerings, the other… at some point had requested multiplayer sized maps from its development team (TDM), this will at any given time divide player count for gamers online if both have multiplayer game types when released, why point that out…

“The hardest part is getting started”

that in mind I’m going to give all the information I’ve jotted down and had lingering in my head since I started playing thievery, in smaller typical post size defined categories rather than one big oversized post, which is hard to read through.

Night Blade sound suggestions


1. Sound through walls wasn’t muffled or enclosed and zoned, so with an actor or mapping method can we do this? (degrading sound) why~

2. For instance let’s say that sound is only of pace when heard and not seen (movement or a character) but not distinguishable between character game sounds (thief footsteps/guard footsteps). (The sound source) after its outward radius reaches geometry(floor/ceiling) (crawling in an attic above) to be heard below, the generated sound reacts like its filling an empty volume, based on the surface or something in-between the ceiling and floors (maybe a semi solid sheet) with properties to block, push and move that sound or degrade it so it acts realistically (muffled), like a script or something, or bend it and throw it off course to a gap or opening where its faintly heard, (ex-) as if it creeps round openings and gaps… bourgeois attic the trap door but the sound is in the middle of the triangle arch area where the sound starts filling the volume around it, sound almost only audible as its carried on the wind (travels a set radius reacting to geometry guiding it intelligently) (modulated if you want I guess, eerie), so by only investigating and coming across an enemy you know what it was (the surprise and the creepiness captured)

3. *some sounds in thievery were to clear with both distance range and nearness how they went through walls didn’t fade in volume or utilize distance delay effects reverb echoing etc was disappointing, and realistically the linear side of sound in tut was just packages that had no soul being played that felt a bit off (bow half way across the map sounding closer than it actually was) what radius will people be able to hear things from?, (zone info properties) increase radius of sound in this area etc, anything like that1? Realism.

4. (Team chat built in to ut04 iirc) ut3 I don’t know, how about the microphone input source uses eax effects (mapped in?), would be a great implementation in sewers and tunnels, or echo throughout the streets, when you speak in a certain zone your voice uses those effects.

5. (Team chat overheard in the city streets of a map if thieves are close enough, should have a trail off effect with greater distances) while guards pass each other an update, (hard to explain in words what that can bring to NB, like the start of that TDS map lions head sconce.

6. Another game play point to bring up is, when relaying information and using realism, text is something you can’t govern or stop as its needed, or is it!?, but a serious leap canceling it out for NB, probably will never happen. However you could talk and type to all after games, then again integrated team chat using microphones overrides canceling text indefinitely, BUT if the game was based on communications within range and players could only type after game or specs use whisper you then have REALISM and then have a game playing out how it would using real world rules, you wouldn’t need alert delay or horrid looking text on your screen, you could talk and worry about thieves over hearing, and have a team text and voice chat section when the clock counts down to the map starting.

7. crosshair aiming at a player of the same team, how about a taunt feature that acts as a whistle within certain range, just a bolt sized 2 by 2 unit thick projectile invisible to game, sound source to communicate quickly, (London police whistles 1900) get the idea, stereo should pick up direction in headphones!

8. Stress point in floorboards for crawling creeping sound instead of footsteps, metal surfaces react too much weight on a surface causes different sound, surface sounds recorded specifically, so a concealed thief adding weight on a mapped area surface as a guard travels through indicates more weight hidden by the dark, moving so slow the sound is stress on objects that would bend or react to weight, another sound for surfaces to consider impo, optional in sound properties, new dynamic.

9. High end metallic sounds, need to be damn well nurfed, I’ve got a 24 bit crystallizer on my sound card, and thievery is sparkly already, really kills your ears, having a nice rounded sound is much more enjoyable.

10. No objective sound or an option to turn that feature off or at least its sound (chasing thieves on the grass in the dark, interrupts game play), or how about no objective notification as a mapping option, must be a way to worm around it.

11. Ear damage in game to characters that are struck, causes problems for the actual players listening, or temporarily distorts sound, damage to the side of the head, something like a lofi modulation effect.

12. Previous idea about leaving notes scrolls in areas on the map if you didn’t have the ability to type in game or talk within range (later in information I will add), how about an option to voice over what your typing the game records a voice over of the scroll you typed something on and dropped, so when you Pick up a dropped note, you get the players voiced over notes play, capturing background game sounds as they speak and type it up, wind ambience etc not music files.

Last edited by industrialism; 29th Apr 2008 at 04:23 PM.
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Old 30th Apr 2008, 07:44 AM   #2
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Quite a few of those things are impossible to do.

We've already implemented sound propagation via the navigation system, so sounds are quieter if there is a wall blocking them (because they have to go around the wall), but pathing can be a little hit or miss so the effect needs to be somewhat subtle. I will review later, although any improvements would probably require extra work from mappers.
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Old 30th Apr 2008, 08:49 AM   #3
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The stress point idea sounds nice, could prolly be done with a modified trigger thingabob.

1. Neato and already in? Cool
2. After the first half sentence i got really interested in minute details on the webpage, like how the white space gets greyish silvery when i stare at it long
3. Falls under that sound propagation thing i guess
4. Nice..gimmick i guess
5. Thief players able to overhear guards TS conversations and reverse? Sounds funky but most would prolly just use "external stuff" which cant be overheard (zzz) or just type in teamsay.
6. Hmwah?
7. Isnt that already in with the "Thief here!" stuff?
8. See start
9. "Stuff should be altered depending on my individual rig"? :p
10. If ya like i guess
11. Nah
12. A little wax phonograph item like in Thief 2 where you can have Truart say his stuff over and over!

Complicated long things make me feel stupid i need bullet points like this :
1. Lasers
2. You can jump around like some ninja and do walldodges woo
3. Instakill backstabs for thieves with a dagger wee

If you didnt want your ideas discussed ignore this
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Old 30th Apr 2008, 11:37 AM   #4
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 Originally Posted by Schleicher: ( link to post ) 
If you didnt want your ideas discussed ignore this
If he didn't want his ideas discussed then it would be silly to post it here! har har har!
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Old 30th Apr 2008, 12:37 PM   #5
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It could be a wish list :L
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Old 1st May 2008, 10:35 AM   #6
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On the sound issue, i dont know if it can be done in UT3, but it's definately a part of source. (all sounds beyond a wall, through a door are noticably muffled)
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Old 3rd May 2008, 10:13 AM   #7
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Also the sound quality of UT99 (and TUT) was very low - 22.1khz. This means that high-frequencies could not be used in the sound effects, so a high-frequency filter to simulate muffliing (an obstacle blocking the sound, distant sound, etc.) would have been useless. There was just nothing to filter out.
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Old 3rd May 2008, 10:28 AM   #8
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I'm not sure if we can programatically muffle sounds, I will look into it.
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Old 6th May 2008, 10:04 AM   #9
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 Originally Posted by MontyPython: ( link to post ) 
Also the sound quality of UT99 (and TUT) was very low - 22.1khz. This means that high-frequencies could not be used in the sound effects, so a high-frequency filter to simulate muffliing (an obstacle blocking the sound, distant sound, etc.) would have been useless. There was just nothing to filter out.
An average human cannot hear any higher than 16Khz. A muffling band-pass would be ALOT lower than that, generally you can only hear very low bass through walls, doors etc, in the sub 200Hz~ range
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Old 6th May 2008, 11:05 AM   #10
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Thats like saying the average human only has 2 ears so we can't hear more than stereo
or live action movies are 30fps, what does it matter if UT3 is 60fps
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Old 6th May 2008, 11:50 AM   #11
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You have to remember that due to James Browns law of earodynamics, that 22.1Khz digitised sound actually sounds like 11Khz to us mere analogue creatures. So that's 5Khz (or 40 Jezebels if you prefer Browns terminology) of unclear sound! Nowhere near the sub 200Hz but food for thought!
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Old 6th May 2008, 12:31 PM   #12
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Jezebels? Is that like Dr Emmit Brown's "1.21 Jigawatts" needed for time travel?
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Old 6th May 2008, 12:35 PM   #13
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Similar, but it's imbued with funk instead of great scotts.
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Old 6th May 2008, 05:30 PM   #14
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 Originally Posted by necros: ( link to post ) 
An average human cannot hear any higher than 16Khz. A muffling band-pass would be ALOT lower than that, generally you can only hear very low bass through walls, doors etc, in the sub 200Hz~ range
This:

 Originally Posted by Baz: ( link to post ) 
22.1Khz digitised sound actually sounds like 11Khz to us mere analogue creatures.
Exactly, and that's because sampling rate =/= max frequency. You need several captures to create a wave. So 44.1khz means 44 thousand captures per second (in 44/16, each capture is encoded on 16 bits). That's about just enough to encode a 20 hertz note.
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Old 6th May 2008, 06:08 PM   #15
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 Originally Posted by -KewlAzMe-: ( link to post ) 
Thats like saying the average human only has 2 ears so we can't hear more than stereo
or live action movies are 30fps, what does it matter if UT3 is 60fps
What I want to know is, how many fps is real life?
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Old 6th May 2008, 06:18 PM   #16
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depends on intoxication. Tho USA and Japan real life is faster than the rest of the world
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Old 7th May 2008, 03:37 AM   #17
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 Originally Posted by Ghostly apparition: ( link to post ) 
What I want to know is, how many fps is real life?
Planck time (~ 5.4 × 10E−44 seconds) is the smallest unit of time that can be used before current physics theories fail, and is thus suspected to be the smallest unit of time. This gives real life a frame rate of ~1.9 x 10E43 frames per second.

Limits of human perception would be somewhat less than that.
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Old 7th May 2008, 08:07 AM   #18
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The tick of the universe anyone?
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Old 3rd Aug 2008, 04:18 PM   #19
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Caltrops whistlers and mines discussion.

In thievery the way players react with traps isn’t realistic more so frustrating but how they function in game is correct or at least always for one team, but when you consider physics (movement push etc) its definitely something to discuss if they are part of (this project NB), its real to what the game allows (the Thievery world), but it highlights the limitations of a characters physical ability and much more…
For example to lean and step over them (hop), pick them up (like a drunk taffer with a traffic cone) trigger (set them off) or push them with projectiles, all rather laughable when you look at it like this, it’s not in thievery and would broaden the dynamics and even render them pointless under circumstances. This is part of thievery’s game play, any change toward this part of the game and what the option has allowed and effected occurrences in game with the design or maps and how they were used (stronghold basement) would be lost, this morphs aspects that make Thievery what it is -into a new version and new game in the most drastic of changes, and moves away from the comfort of accepting this as a (love hate) (acceptable / fault highlight able) aspect of Thievery, depending on what team your playing on and how realistic a game you crave. So what would you do? What is right? “Not making the same game”? That famous, to me quote.

Team killing and damage,
If traps were dangerous to both teams, that would balance the realism, but create a (wall, barrier, trench style) combat around the area (trapped) which is usually a combination of the three types of traps available, but being able to trigger mines with a projectile, and the proximity and radius of the explosion makes traps what then!?, a waste of money?, to easy to remove in the view of the cost of one bolt, and traps placed to close destroying the deterrent, although the guards fault (new players) and the complaints of text following “noob” kick votes…

“Traps” Are they useless when changing the physical abilities of characters and broadening the project, or making the item react to both players removing the DE bridge scenario, is steam punk technology or (the traps we know of) adding something that is not truly balanceable if it were to be…, or at least how it reacts realistically without frustrating someone? And being in the fair margin unless they are traps that are not meant to be fair. Do we continue to use the strengths of the opposing forces as something that defines them and makes them a deterrent when crossing through the light and the dark?, what is the middle ground the equal playing field, for the intervals or things that can occur at the interval a trapped doorway…
If it’s “Fighting” (get caught, have to get something guarded to well, ai accuracy items and disabling an enemy but giving them equal physical attributes including melee?) taken into to account, then you have a game that is fair to death match which moves away from the stealth offering if only by choice (the lines do blur) the influence, the reason, the style of game changes it’s no longer thievery… or what do you accept as thievery? A team of garret always winning?
We have beautiful maps, laced with decorative art and mysterious objects known as loot, and a dm ut3 mod in most equated solutions with change towards balancing everything, this is merely one topic that I can’t see past with this new project balancing and changing without actually removing certain things entirely.

I believe mappers discretion will save NB from itself whatever its coded to offer, even if it comes in version after version of map and mod, how can you redo Thievery if not exactly the same without eventually creating a new game or even carrying over the works of art are tuts maps without saying something feels like its missing, (balancing tweaking incorporating scrapping and finalizing but considering scrapping things that are Thievery), that make Thievery what it is leans towards something that isn’t home and begins to strip what is the barebones of a game and become linear, for better or for worse.
Although everyone wants better and all the best for NB) even balancing something is the Rubik’s cube for this project, meeting peoples suggestions, knowing that maps designed properly don’t beat the players choice, “small/big maps make people ghost/dm” “thief map/guard map”

Even making suggestions goes into another topic or discussion it’s very difficult to say anything without nailing something on the head, when trying to help and give back years of knowledge, I’m open to whatever but I’d love to know what the devs are up too, because to me I’m getting worried, but im greatly anticipating any incarnation of effort towards whatever this project is going to be, and the alpha was… not the flashes of what I saw years back, in the dark listening to music thinking about NB and the maps and what I would try to create or expect. “I don’t know why I never asked you… now it’s over…”

Lot more to come, been busy.
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Old 3rd Aug 2008, 04:31 PM   #20
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 Originally Posted by ]>CoD<[Chief: ( link to post ) 
The tick of the universe anyone?
Fair test once you do the mario reappearing screen thing and have been everywhere impo... what we know to exist isnt enough, our time when you think or traveling at certain speeds, and the effect on things not at that speed that are like us?

really wanna go there dude?, come play some tut you taffer!
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Old 5th Aug 2008, 12:55 PM   #21
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After reading your last long post, Industrialism, I can't help myself asking "What?" What was it you were saying there?
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Old 7th Aug 2008, 04:54 PM   #22
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I think the majority of his questions can be self-answered simply by buying UT3 and trying it out. Then he can really contribute. Indus if you need a donation you can always drop a hint or something.
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Old 8th Aug 2008, 03:28 AM   #23
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 Originally Posted by FatRatHead: ( link to post ) 
I think the majority of his questions can be self-answered simply by buying UT3 and trying it out. Then he can really contribute. Indus if you need a donation you can always drop a hint or something.
I have ut3 and have tried it out (NB that is).

Q: Ok question goes to you two, do Thievery's thieves have three arms and three hands?

A: Yes

One to hold the bow, a second to pull back the string, and a third to throw a flash all at the same time.


No mystical gong sound when you highlight sorry about that, it’s a bit obvious thievery is retarded for the most part, and the key is to keep away from that side of game play to survive, why bother pointing anything out. For instance mapper’s discretion is only going to leave you with more starting loot, and that's not a bad thing right?


Answer extended: I’m pointing out realism (three hands respectively) and how to look at disabled death matching, where you render your opponent, more useless than usual, cause this time you got him real good with that flash bomb! (Fair game). Now look at a balanced attribute system while wielding weapons for each class, supporting the death matching style fairly, for a great fighting experience (but items being allowed to aid similar to tut *ouch, is flash to great for offence?*, can we see them hanging off the player model or s/he grabbing them before they’re used), but making dm’s happy (even if one life per map) is moving away from what most people hope NB to deliver (a stealth game). Wearing all that metal, you would think guards don’t have much of a hit system, armor weakness’s maybe, technical fighting… sorry, you either get me or you don’t, and its just nodding stuff the devs have allready considered, i just wanted to see what other people think or have to say besides stfu, and how they feel about thievery after this length of time

Last edited by industrialism; 8th Aug 2008 at 03:51 AM.
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Old 9th Aug 2008, 05:15 AM   #24
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I'm still not sure what point you are making. Perhaps you can put it in bullet points explaining exactly and simply what you're trying to point out? It seems to me that you think the gameplay in Thievery is unbalanced? I think they're already trying to fix that up in this version.

You don't like the idea of having 3 arms. However I expect that most people, including me, never gave it a second thought in thievery. It's so unimportant and in games, realism is easily sacraficed for the sake of gameplay. Always. The balance in thievery wasn't perfect. Often the thieves had the advantage, but when it came to maps where guards could just camp at a single doorway, or two doorways, they usually had the advantage. To solve this problem, I recommend that people play through Thievery again, decide upon what they consider to be their favourite, most perfectly balanced map and then get the creator to write out a list of dos and donts of map difficulty balancing.
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