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Old 3rd May 2005, 04:56 AM   #61
FixXxeR
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Pah, I only look at the forums once in a while, and I can see some people have not changed.

One of the most unique communities on the net, where you have to trick and bluff one another in-game and out, and you still get those really bitter SOB's who cant take it.

Sure its bad, but its the game... right?
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Old 3rd May 2005, 05:48 AM   #62
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um wrong lofl. thats what the entire incident was about in a nutshell. The nature of game dosen't determine what bahaviour is ok outside of the game. Thievery is a game like any other, I don't see why what is acceptable should be different.
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Old 3rd May 2005, 05:49 AM   #63
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 Originally Posted by TafferBoy:
Don't tar everyone with the same brush, this 'community' may have its problems, but this community is still made up of individuals.

"You're all individuals"
"I'm not"
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Old 3rd May 2005, 06:20 AM   #64
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You just luvv your Monty Python don't you Mono
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Old 3rd May 2005, 10:44 AM   #65
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 Originally Posted by Shug:
The reason you left is because you couldn't handle the game in its entirety, CE, and both of us know it.
No, I left because of people's stuck up attitudes and the fact that lots of people's views are ignored and discredited and some of the small minority of groups in power claim that they are doing what everyone wants and thinks. They try to make out like that anyway, even if they won't admit it. I am perfectly capeable to be able to 'handle the game in it's entirety', the difference is that it is how the gameplay becomes in such situations that is not fun nor skillfull, in the slightest.

You are trying to strengthen your point by saying that 'I know it too' - this does not strengthen it, it merely shows how closed minded and rediculous you are being not to realise and accept other reasons.
 Originally Posted by Shug:
You're free to leave the game if you don't like it, but don't dare blast the game for a shortcoming that is squarely on your end.
I'm not blasting the game, I am commenting on how the game has been abused. In reality, if you want to do well there is no real freedom of playstyle. People are forced to play a certain way in order to do well or 'fit in'. Some people play with no regard to others - some even get kicks from aliasing and joining servers and trying to intimidate people for example. Some merely enjoy tailoring the development of new ideas of the game and server rules around themselves. Fun for all.

 Originally Posted by Shug:
Honestly guys, from day one Thievery has been an online game where - gasp - people compete against each other to win. All this thread acts as is a soapbox for people that haven't played pub regularly for over 6 months to come and have a stab at the "elite" players, like it's somehow a crime to have learnt how to play the game well.
Ahh you see your definition of 'well' might be slighlty different to mine. I do not consider exploits, devious behaviour, intimidation under alias, and mainly, using repeatedly unbalanced methods that require no skill to perform.

 Originally Posted by monolith:
If you think that the players of TUT are a 'community' (implying you are skeptical of the use of that term for 'us') and you have left said 'community', and you don't care what we think of you, why should we take any of your comments even half-seriously (even though you may have made some valid points?). Like any other community, online or otherwise, there are those who break rules, those who stick to them, and the rest of us mortals somewhere in between. It does not make us any less of a community, just a diverse one like any other. Given how easy it is to cheat online these days, we have a remarkably good bunch of people, who for the most part (despite their alleged lust to win at all costs) do the right thing.

I think you have made it pretty clear that you don't want to be a part of our community. Good. Go (again)
Happy birthday to you too. You are right though, I don't expect you to take any of what I say seriously. As I have said, say what you like. I expected to be insulted and descredited when I posted. Take from what I post what you will. You don't have to take anything from it if you don't want to. If you think I am a silly little cunt then fair enough. I couldn't care less really. Isn't going to affect my life or anything.

 Originally Posted by Gladius:
An interesting read and good points CE. However I disagree with parts of it. Competitive play just ‘does it’ for some people and doesn't ‘do it’ for others. It’s not for everyone.
Yep yep, I fully fully accept that. Even for myself competitiveness sometimes comes into it. However there are boundaries for me. I won't do anything I feel is wrong, unfair or exploitingly skilless to win. If I win, I want to get some satisfaction that I have won well and with skill. It seems some people do not have this, and all they have is the desire to win. 'Tis quite sad, particularly when it is a game.

Sure it is nice to win yes, and I try to win but I will win fairly. Others just do whatever it takes to win. The main bad thing is the deviousness, the lying and the falseness of it all. Yes people have been very false to me. For example, on one occassion, someone went under alias and started to have a go at me, along with other people under alias and then left the server. They then rejoined afterwards, under their normal name and pretended to have heard something was wrong and asked me what was up. I am not stupid and don't take kindly to be treated like a fool. I don't know why people would waste their time doing something like this really - unless they find it amusing, which is also sad in a way.

 Originally Posted by Gladius:
Don't tar everyone with the same brush, this 'community' may have its problems, but this community is still made up of individuals.
Yer, fair enough, I agree with you there What I say may be like I am doing that but in my mind it is individuals really. Just that it is easier to say the community - particularly out of mild annoyance and also not wanting to be accused of 'personal attacks' and such.
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Old 3rd May 2005, 06:24 PM   #66
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 Originally Posted by Citizen Erased:
Just that it is easier to say the community - particularly out of mild annoyance and also not wanting to be accused of 'personal attacks' and such.
Ahh but a community can be villified.

You must remember that many in this community are young (or young in the head like me), and, like many naive youths do things they will later regret (eg like use exploits to win). In this game, to last (not necessarily to be the best player) you have to have thick skin. I am, at best an average player, so my main reason for playing the game is for social reasons, to have FUN, and, sometimes, if the great god of rogues is looking down upon me, to WIN!! On a good night I will do all three, but I am content with just one.

Like you say, this is not going to affect your life, nor will it affect most of ours.

But you should know that I have watched the actions of my own guildmates over the last few months and have been impressed with their candour and ability to forgive. You have NO idea. (oh, and leet skill too). Given the "sneaky" nature of this game, they are very honorable. They are a great bunch of guys who I am proud to call guildmates. I also extend this approbation (with caveats of course ) to many others in this community. Laughing Rat (even handed and wise facilitator - and, even better, older than me!); Grank (the name says it all - one American I would have over for dinner Indus (who usually hands my butt to me); BA (she who must be obeyed ); Frid (my online valkyrie); Brodes (of course!); and the list is long(ish, considering how small this community is). As they say "you know who you are".
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Old 3rd May 2005, 06:26 PM   #67
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 Originally Posted by TafferBoy:
You just luvv your Monty Python don't you Mono
"Indeed"

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Old 3rd May 2005, 06:57 PM   #68
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 Originally Posted by Citizen Erased:
I won't do anything I feel is wrong, unfair or exploitingly skilless to win. If I win, I want to get some satisfaction that I have won well and with skill. It seems some people do not have this, and all they have is the desire to win. 'Tis quite sad, particularly when it is a game.
A valid point there, the less 'fair' the win, the more empty the win. However everyone has their own ideas on what is fair, dosen't mean anyone is right or wrong, players just have different limits.

 Originally Posted by Citizen Erased:
For example, on one occassion, someone went under alias and started to have a go at me, along with other people under alias and then left the server. They then rejoined afterwards, under their normal name and pretended to have heard something was wrong and asked me what was up.
Wow that really sucks, not something I approve of in the slightest. Something the majority of the community is in agreement about.

 Originally Posted by Citizen Erased:
What I say may be like I am doing that but in my mind it is individuals really. Just that it is easier to say the community - particularly out of mild annoyance and also not wanting to be accused of 'personal attacks' and such.
Ok, no worries.
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Old 3rd May 2005, 07:36 PM   #69
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CE, I can only comment and what I've seen (obviously), and what I saw from you was this:

Didn't like certain tactics the games fully allows -> complained that they lacked skill or weren't "fun" -> most 'established' players disagreed and said "learn to counter it" -> you take that to mean that "players' views" are not respected. You're basically proving my point; you mention things like "how the gameplay becomes in such situations that is not fun nor skillfull, in the slightest". For want of a better term, that's an enormously scrubbish view. So really, you're railing against things the game fully allows; ergo, you can't handle the full game. And that manifests itself in your conflict with other players and subsequently you say the problem is that people aren't respected, but that's merely a symptom. Not the cause. If you hadn't complained so loudly and vehemently about perfectly acceptable aspects of the game, I'm sure you'd receive a lot more respect. Phae's a prime example: once he stopped complaining about how everything was lame, he got a lot more respect from myself and others (and was a better player for it).

You also seem to have this vision of all the admins lording it over people. I've publically disagreed with other admins; I've VERY publically ranted about aliasing, why I think it's bad for the game and how irritated I am about people who alias to bag others... and so on. So I don't know how you can sit there and say that I (as an admin) advocate those kinds of things, this isn't a bloody conspiracy; it's a community full of people with different ideas and the admins by no means don't all get along and agree on the same things. Besides, who are we to tell the OWNERS of their servers what to do and how to do it? I'm grateful that they run a free service for me, so I respect their right to set the rules, even if I don't fully agree.

The fact that you think the game has been abused by people is yet another indication that you can't handle the full game, and everything that comes with it.

Another quote of yours: "and mainly, using repeatedly unbalanced methods that require no skill to perform."
-> Can't handle the game.

Seeing the pattern?

Also, if anyone should be lecturing about playstyles and what you need to do in order to win... it would be me telling YOU. And you're laughably off the mark.

I'm not saying you're wrong about the aliasing, the intimidation and so on - that's exclusively an attitude problem, not a game one - but you need to admit to yourself that you couldn't handle the free reign of Thievery as it is now, and you wanted it to be a different game. I'm sure I could dig up other posts of yours on these very forums that say the same thing.
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Old 3rd May 2005, 10:51 PM   #70
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 Originally Posted by monolithAU:
I also extend this approbation (with caveats of course ) to many others in this community. Laughing Rat (even handed and wise facilitator - and, even better, older than me!); Grank (the name says it all - one American I would have over for dinner Indus (who usually hands my butt to me); BA (she who must be obeyed ); Frid (my online valkyrie); Brodes (of course!); and the list is long(ish, considering how small this community is). As they say "you know who you are".
Wow. I'm honored to just be mentioned, let alone being mentioned first (even if the REAL point was to point out that I'm older than you ). However, I'm not sure I like some of the company you've grouped me with. That Grank, he's a scoundrel, a scallawag, and an all around bad person.

 Originally Posted by Shug:
I've VERY publically ranted about aliasing, why I think it's bad for the game and how irritated I am about people who alias to bag others... and so on.
I'm assuming by this that you DON'T mean people who alias to catch cheaters and such in the act. Because if you do, I shall have to challenge you to a duel, sir.
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Old 4th May 2005, 03:29 AM   #71
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I just wanted to say that I think public matches are run pretty well - the rare cheater or rager gets banned pretty quickly and people don't use software hax (that I know of) either. Compare this to Civ 3 which I played online last weekend and the first handfull of games were cancelled due to cheaters being in the game and using software hax - it really ruined the fun and it took an hour or so for a real game to get started! I have *heard* people say similar things about counterstrike and UT.
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Old 4th May 2005, 04:10 AM   #72
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We often have private games with the people on TS / MSN, anyone is welcome if they're around.
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Old 4th May 2005, 02:55 PM   #73
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 Originally Posted by Shug:
CE, I can only comment and what I've seen (obviously), and what I saw from you was this:

Didn't like certain tactics the games fully allows -> complained that they lacked skill or weren't "fun" -> most 'established' players disagreed and said "learn to counter it" -> you take that to mean that "players' views" are not respected. You're basically proving my point; you mention things like "how the gameplay becomes in such situations that is not fun nor skillfull, in the slightest". For want of a better term, that's an enormously scrubbish view. So really, you're railing against things the game fully allows; ergo, you can't handle the full game. And that manifests itself in your conflict with other players and subsequently you say the problem is that people aren't respected, but that's merely a symptom. Not the cause. If you hadn't complained so loudly and vehemently about perfectly acceptable aspects of the game, I'm sure you'd receive a lot more respect. Phae's a prime example: once he stopped complaining about how everything was lame, he got a lot more respect from myself and others (and was a better player for it).

You also seem to have this vision of all the admins lording it over people. I've publically disagreed with other admins; I've VERY publically ranted about aliasing, why I think it's bad for the game and how irritated I am about people who alias to bag others... and so on. So I don't know how you can sit there and say that I (as an admin) advocate those kinds of things, this isn't a bloody conspiracy; it's a community full of people with different ideas and the admins by no means don't all get along and agree on the same things. Besides, who are we to tell the OWNERS of their servers what to do and how to do it? I'm grateful that they run a free service for me, so I respect their right to set the rules, even if I don't fully agree.

The fact that you think the game has been abused by people is yet another indication that you can't handle the full game, and everything that comes with it.

Another quote of yours: "and mainly, using repeatedly unbalanced methods that require no skill to perform."
-> Can't handle the game.

Seeing the pattern?

Also, if anyone should be lecturing about playstyles and what you need to do in order to win... it would be me telling YOU. And you're laughably off the mark.

I'm not saying you're wrong about the aliasing, the intimidation and so on - that's exclusively an attitude problem, not a game one - but you need to admit to yourself that you couldn't handle the free reign of Thievery as it is now, and you wanted it to be a different game. I'm sure I could dig up other posts of yours on these very forums that say the same thing.
So, having different views from yours means that I 'can't handle the game'? Narrow minded I see. I don't have so much against playstyles - more exploits. It is attitudes that are the problem. Levels and some of the game mechanics are unbalanced but still, people's attitudes to how they treat the levels should accommadate that. Unfortunatey it is not the case.

Either you can't understand my point of view or you are trying to twist what I say or both.

This is meant to be about attitudes and not the game itself - it is you who have swung it this way, may I ask why? Is it so you can tailor your arguement around discreditting me and so called scrubdom? I think so. I am not unable to counter things, just don't see why I should have to in the first place if they are exploits or unfair. Why should I have to change how I play because someone else is exploiting? This is missing the point of my intial post and stuff though.

Yes, you have tried to change it to a subject of something where you can discredit me more easily and have a go at me more easily. Quite devious tactics really there. Not exactly the nicest thing to do either, but then you never really liked me I don't think. I personally don't really have a problem with you. No point letting this get into personal terms though, as that is just silly. You were the one who brought it that way, not me. I will not drop to your level.
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Old 4th May 2005, 03:10 PM   #74
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 Originally Posted by Citizen Erased:
So, having different views from yours means that I 'can't handle the game'? Narrow minded I see.
No, that's not at all narrow-minded. That you take issue with people doing things the game specifically allows them to do does in fact mean that you can't handle the game as it is. You think it should be different, that things that it's possible to do shouldn't be allowed (in some cases things explicitly programmed into the game by its makers, in fact). Ergo, "you can't handle the game". The very definition of a scrub is someone who attempts to impose limitations on the play of a game that aren't in the game itself.

 Originally Posted by Citizen Erased:
I don't have so much against playstyles - more exploits. It is attitudes that are the problem.
Here's where we agree. Many attitudes suck in this community. It's really nothing I haven't seen in the communities of any PvP game, though. Competition brings out the worst in people. It's not enough just to play well, it seems its necessary to make everyone believe you're teh bestest, ubarest player evar.

 Originally Posted by Citizen Erased:
Levels and some of the game mechanics are unbalanced but still, people's attitudes to how they treat the levels should accommadate that. Unfortunatey it is not the case.
Back to disagreeing. Game mechanics are really very well balanced. Some specific maps aren't, but that's the way it goes. Take the "thief maps" as a guarding challenge or an easy ride thiefing, and vice versa for the "guard maps". It's a neat variation that allows more competitive play between players of different skill levels, as the better players can choose the more challenging team for a given map, if they want to.

 Originally Posted by Citizen Erased:
I am not unable to counter things, just don't see why I should have to in the first place if they are exploits or unfair. Why should I have to change how I play because someone else is exploiting? This is missing the point of my intial post and stuff though.
If an "exploit" is counterable, then it's not unfair, is it? Since it CAN be stopped. You just choose not to - your problem then. Why should you have to in the first place? Because like it or not, it's part of the game. You either deal with that or you lose to those who choose to deal with it. Your choice.

 Originally Posted by Citizen Erased:
Yes, you have tried to change it to a subject of something where you can discredit me more easily and have a go at me more easily. Quite devious tactics really there. Not exactly the nicest thing to do either, but then you never really liked me I don't think. I personally don't really have a problem with you. No point letting this get into personal terms though, as that is just silly. You were the one who brought it that way, not me. I will not drop to your level.
Ignored the personal attack you made on Shug in a previous paragraph. I'll respond to it, as well as the one here now. Such attacks make no difference to the game as it is, and don't strengthen your argument at all.

I don't think Shug was trying to twist your wording at all. I think he was stating the context in which your posts have been made, as he understood it. You've had a problem with people using what it's possible to do ingame (fact), and it's contributed to your choice not to play any more (my own speculation).
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Old 4th May 2005, 03:20 PM   #75
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My point is that it is not meant to be possible. As an example, stuff like rapid fire crossbow is not counterable and not intended. According to many people though it is encouraged. Apparently I am a scrub if I say using it is wrong. This is the sad state of some people's mentalities.
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Old 4th May 2005, 03:29 PM   #76
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 Originally Posted by Citizen Erased:
My point is that it is not meant to be possible. As an example, stuff like rapid fire crossbow is not counterable and not intended. According to many people though it is encouraged. Apparently I am a scrub if I say using it is wrong. This is the sad state of some people's mentalities.
It's irrelevant whether it's meant to be possible or not. It is. Refusing to deal with that is refusing to deal with the game-as-it-is.

People are also not meant to be driving through intersections when their light is red, yet people sometimes do. Are you going to charge headlong through your own green light when someone is running the red in the other direction, just because they're not meant to be? If so, you're not dealing with the intersection-as-it-is.

In both cases, there's a basic denial of reality occurring.
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Old 4th May 2005, 03:46 PM   #77
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Fair enough, however that doesn't make it right.

But then nobody seems too care aboutr right or wrong nowadays anyway This is applies to life aswell and perhaps more so.
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Old 4th May 2005, 04:19 PM   #78
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 Originally Posted by Citizen Erased:
Fair enough, however that doesn't make it right.
That I can also agree with, with reservations. Running a red light isn't "right", either, after all.

However, there's a very big difference between doing something that's truly morally wrong, and utilizing a non-gamebreaking exploit in an online game.

You can always choose to advocate for changes in the game to the things you think are "wrong". But telling someone they can't or shouldn't use game features, intended or otherwise isn't any more "right" than using them is "wrong".

They're there. Deal with them or don't, your choice. And just to set things in perspective, I'm someone who chose not to, having left the game. Playing wasn't fun for me any more. However, I never once said to anyone that it wasn't "right" or "wrong" for them to use what the game allowed them to do, except in cases that trivialized the game, or gave an unfair (ie, uncounterable) advantage, or broke gameplay completely.

 Originally Posted by Citizen Erased:
But then nobody seems too care aboutr right or wrong nowadays anyway This is applies to life aswell and perhaps more so.
Perhaps your passion and energy would be better spent on real life issues, then. On issues that actually matter in day to day life, rather than on relatively unimportant things like a game.
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Old 5th May 2005, 03:39 AM   #79
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 Originally Posted by Citizen Erased:
Fair enough, however that doesn't make it right.

But then nobody seems too care aboutr right or wrong nowadays anyway This is applies to life aswell and perhaps more so.
Not entirely true, things are done in competative play that aren't done on public.
Some players choose not to do certain things in the course of a public game because they might consider it 'harsh', not fun, or out of respect for those they play against.
Most players, however, choose not to try to force/ask others to do the same, although there is certain 'if you scratch my back' system at play.

This was always the case in my experience, there is no 'good old days' where everyone conformed to some sort of chivalristic code of conduct. As for it applying to life, 'right and wrong' has always been a flexible concept, as a student of history myself, I see no evidence of more 'moral' past, except in the perception of the nostalgic.
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Old 5th May 2005, 09:11 AM   #80
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 Originally Posted by Citizen Erased:
My point is that it is not meant to be possible. As an example, stuff like rapid fire crossbow is not counterable and not intended. According to many people though it is encouraged. Apparently I am a scrub if I say using it is wrong. This is the sad state of some people's mentalities.
Look I don't like the rapid fire x-bow exploit and I got pretty pissed off about it at first but then I just dealt with it just by forgetting about it and enjoy playing the game. Also larger exploits like this are being fixed in 1.5 I think.
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Old 5th May 2005, 09:28 AM   #81
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 Originally Posted by TafferBoy:
This was always the case in my experience, there is no 'good old days' where everyone conformed to some sort of chivalristic code of conduct.
No, but there was a "good old days" when people didn't use the tricks used now simply because they weren't known.

 Originally Posted by TafferBoy:
As for it applying to life, 'right and wrong' has always been a flexible concept, as a student of history myself, I see no evidence of more 'moral' past, except in the perception of the nostalgic.
Oh, but no, don't you know that morality is an empirical absolute? The church and an ever increasing number of politicians say so. And if you don't agree with them, then you, sir, are morally deficient.
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Old 5th May 2005, 03:41 PM   #82
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The hell... Who are all of you, and what have you done to the people that used to play Thievery?!
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Old 5th May 2005, 05:39 PM   #83
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It's a game, it's supposed to be fun, I don't see that anymore. Too much complaining, too much nagging. Every man out for himself.
Some of the reasons why I don't play anymore.
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Old 5th May 2005, 10:28 PM   #84
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IDK, I can't remmember the last time I saw somone complain. Sure people use bugs, but its nothing that gets me too worked up anymore. I would agree that most players are out for themselves and don't want their buddy getting the loot while they get the map. But thats the way its always been, no?
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Old 5th May 2005, 11:35 PM   #85
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 Originally Posted by LaughingRat:
Oh, but no, don't you know that morality is an empirical absolute? The church and an ever increasing number of politicians say so. And if you don't agree with them, then you, sir, are morally deficient.
haha yeh, I guess my point is that people themselves haven't changed, but society's expectations and control over the way people act has changed through the ages. People don't become 'less moral', they just become desensitised to moral behaviour. Just a point of view on the subject, and i'm all for disagreeing with the church and politicians btw.
Morality is vague kind of concept anyway.

 Originally Posted by LaughingRat:
No, but there was a "good old days" when people didn't use the tricks used now simply because they weren't known.
The 'good old days' before people knew the tricks, like back in 1.2, it was a KO fest with no AI-wakeups and then in 1.3 it became a guard-fest with improved AI and wakeups. Its many of the thief 'tricks'/'exploits' that re-balanced the game and made it possible to win from nearly any position, which is why I like this game so much.
Get with the times yo

 Originally Posted by BA:
It's a game, it's supposed to be fun, I don't see that anymore. Too much complaining, too much nagging. Every man out for himself.
Some of the reasons why I don't play anymore.
Depends who you play with really... I still find the game enjoyable and the majority of players good-natured.
If I look back, there were always complainers, naggers and all that, nothing has changed, and I reckon its got better.

Every since I've played this game I've coped all sorts of stuff from players complaining about this and that. I find it hard to believe that anything is profoundly different except perhaps your 'tolerance' of this behaviour? I mean no offense, I only speculate.
I am of the view that things always seem better in peoples memories, which is why we always hear the 'good old days' expression.

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Old 6th May 2005, 12:01 AM   #86
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That is your opinion, I have mine, and yes things have changed. People change too over time. There are still decent games, BUT, somewhere along the way, the core values of what really matters in this game have been lost, to a certain extent.
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Old 6th May 2005, 12:14 AM   #87
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I guess we agree to disagree.
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Old 6th May 2005, 02:13 AM   #88
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Core values indeed... I hardly notice much difference between two years ago and now, really - other than the standard of guarding improving dramatically. Absence makes the heart grow fonder, you tend to forget about the conflicts and dramas of the past and just miss specific moments and happy memories. I tend to think it's no coincidence that all the active public Thievery players from the last few months don't wallow in the past like this... but the people that disappeared 6+ months ago and only played private games do. I don't presume to know which was the cause and which the effect, though

Funnily enough, the main change I noticed in players was actually an INCREASE in maturity - not overly surprising, considering the amount of teenagers we have here - a lot of them were very young when they started playing, and are now heading into the late stages of their teens.
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Old 6th May 2005, 02:39 AM   #89
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Total agreement from me Shug.

I also find it a bit weird that we have all these ex-players (or those who rarely play anymore), commenting on what thievery is like at the moment. Makes the claims less persuasive to me because of that.
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Old 6th May 2005, 06:04 AM   #90
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 Originally Posted by Shug:
Funnily enough, the main change I noticed in players was actually an INCREASE in maturity - not overly surprising, considering the amount of teenagers we have here - a lot of them were very young when they started playing, and are now heading into the late stages of their teens.
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