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Old 14th Jul 2004, 09:47 PM   #1
Taika
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Regarding SP AI bots...

You know...this just hit me...i read in an earlier post about why the AI in single player is so "crappy" and then i was thinking just now about it and i realized, hey, why dont you make SP as much like online play as possible? why don't the devs go online and watch how players like Sniper007, Johnathon, Carth, and many other (especially the SiX crew) play through the maps with their respective class/character choice and then impliment the bot AI to do what they do relative to the player? that would make SP a lot more newb friendly and it would better prepare newbs for online play and i think it would make sp play a lot more fun then the simple "bot follow bot hold position" dilliy it is now.
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Old 14th Jul 2004, 09:55 PM   #2
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Human behaviour isn't exactly easy to emulate with a computer...
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Old 14th Jul 2004, 10:01 PM   #3
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Well, I think the intent of the developers was so that Single Player and Multiplayer experiences would be different. Single Player is to become familiar with the maps, and learn the strengths and weaknesses of each class. In that respect, the way the AI was designed suits this agenda quite well; players need to know who's best to cover which area, who's good to take point, etc.

Those who want to learn how to play better online (other than actually playing themselves) can either spectate more often, or find demos of people playing (for example) maps on insane.

Of course, I think the idea of having bots play like real-life 'experts' is intriguing, not unlike the AI they have programmed for VF4 (or evo? I forget, I'm not a big Virtua Fighter fan). Still, I think it's a _lot_ of extra work (I'm currently in the middle of programming AI for a UT2004 mod myself, so I know) that they really should spend elsewhere (like making up a new campaign ).
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Old 14th Jul 2004, 10:07 PM   #4
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 Originally Posted by BiG_D:
Human behaviour isn't exactly easy to emulate with a computer...
Well, the unpredictability of humans is probably not going to be emulated (if ever) anytime soon, but you sure can program responses similar to what a real-life person would do if you based that AI on that person.

Obviously this requires extensive data collecting, but it has already been done on (I believe) Virtua Fighter 4 Evolution. Some of the best players in Japan have AI based on them in the game. Of course, I'm sure it's not exactly perfect, but apparently it's good enough that the players themselves recognize their own fighting style within the AI.
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Old 14th Jul 2004, 10:21 PM   #5
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I think you would find the AI doing some annoying things: Faith and Jaeger randomly go off into a corner and make sweet love on Easy/Normal difficulty, a la Snipr-of-sIX and Einstein.

Sarge accidentally blowing away team-mates when trying to pick up items, a la Carth.

Faith spouting off detailed explinations of how to walk around and point your gun on Easy difficulty, a la Johnathan. (I've heard he helps noobs often.)



But seriously, the single player AI really is dissapointing after playing with other humans so much. Maybe they'll beef up the AI if they win the contest (hope hope hope hope).
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Old 15th Jul 2004, 01:13 AM   #6
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I can't even imagine how much time it would consume programming feasible AI for this game, considering the effectiveness of group movement, positioning etc etc. Even the 2k4 AI is basically A-B pathing
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Old 15th Jul 2004, 01:18 AM   #7
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hahah well what i meant more specifically was, more "map based" AI...so the AI would rely on the map...that might not be too effecient because of custom maps but...who knos...i think...we can exclude the parts about einstein and u sniper . but hey, maybe there could be modes to select for the AI, like noob friendly AI that chats with you can tries to help you out, and then the enstein/sniper AI in which Faith and Jaeger go have their sweet love O.O... and so forth...it would be a lot of extra work but it would be really cool too , because you cant have the cool pretty stuff without a lot of work that might not really seem like it hehe
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Old 15th Jul 2004, 06:02 AM   #8
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I'd prefer that the AI were just simple aimbots like they are now, so you have to plan it out and set up crossfires. But some movement or prediction of attacks from behind would be nice. Currently if you tell a bot to wait they have greater range and accuracy but still get attacked from behind... trying to get a bot to survive at the Uplink boss is so difficult on insane.
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Old 15th Jul 2004, 07:31 AM   #9
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tthats when u solo the boss and leave them up top i do that in multiplayer a lot....for one, ill usually live, but if i dont ill do hella damage to it before i die, me being a demo, am expendable, then the rest of the team finishes it off, if im the only one to die its a good day

why do i leave them up top ? i use shotty / flamer combo to drop him, and when flameing all the little bugs basically corralling them, like horses, ill flame someone dodgeing the boss every time, that and they have no chance of dieing up there.
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Old 15th Jul 2004, 09:43 AM   #10
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WTF Snipr stop telling everyone about our lover's corner secret, last time we invited another guy it was just plain awkward.
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Old 15th Jul 2004, 09:58 AM   #11
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 Originally Posted by Einstein:
WTF Snipr stop telling everyone about our lover's corner secret, last time we invited another guy it was just plain awkward.

*boggle
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Old 15th Jul 2004, 10:10 AM   #12
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 Originally Posted by Einstein:
WTF Snipr stop telling everyone about our lover's corner secret, last time we invited another guy it was just plain awkward.
Can I join the lover's corner? Sniper's voice makes me tingle all over.
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Old 15th Jul 2004, 10:51 AM   #13
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Expand your horizons Einy my Heiny.
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Old 15th Jul 2004, 11:12 AM   #14
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May be we can add a planning stage after the brief (just like the Rainbow Six, if anyone know), which will allow player(s) to layout the path that the team "suppose" to follow, instead of follow the leader. It is a hell lot of work in Barrack to control those bots at the beginning and the path-planning thing should make the thing much managable.

Also, with that, the AI for the bots may not need to change too much, which means less programming (I believe we all love to ). And the path-planning can add some "real life component" into the game. You cannot simply believe that the marines go into a facility without a floor layout or some plans and they can stay alive.
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Old 15th Jul 2004, 11:55 AM   #15
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Anyone ever play conflict: desert storm? Its on X-box and PC. You can pick up a PC version for 10 bucks at all the wal-marts around here. They have a pretty cool buddy system for controlling the other teammates. You hold ALT and press A and can position your cursor wherever you want your teammate to ADVANCE and even rotate the direction you want them to facewith Q and E. Then you can use W and S to select which teammate you want to move there and hit A again to order them to do it. I'm pretty sure thats how it goes. I haven't played it in quite a while. Some more precise bot orders would definitely help solve the problem of stupid AI.

Maybe a way to order formations would be cool, such as 3 face forward and 1 face back, or surround a certain unit (medic or marine), or a 2 face forward and 2 face backward formation.
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Old 15th Jul 2004, 04:24 PM   #16
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yea, that would definetly be a plus to the cluster that there is now. I mean i can see how its a definite challenge to decide where to position your chars, but for instances like Uplink boss its definetly nice to have a wee bit better AI --;;...
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Old 15th Jul 2004, 04:39 PM   #17
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They definitely need a "Dodge the al's like a mofo" command.
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Old 15th Jul 2004, 05:51 PM   #18
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I agree that formations would be nice, but the AI seems to have enough problems not getting stuck on objects as it is...
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Old 15th Jul 2004, 06:05 PM   #19
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hehe aye ye be having a point there...though the only problem i've had with the AI getting stuck is on reactor core in the vents and on observation in those vents as well
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Old 16th Jul 2004, 01:10 PM   #20
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 Originally Posted by Sniper007:
Faith spouting off detailed explinations of how to walk around and point your gun on Easy difficulty, a la Johnathan. (I've heard he helps noobs often.)
Hahaha, I could see that. Tactics 101 with cpl. Faith
rofl
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Old 16th Jul 2004, 05:52 PM   #21
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I'll take ANY lesson faith could give me :0D
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Old 16th Jul 2004, 06:14 PM   #22
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Sounds like you need a life more than I do
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Old 16th Jul 2004, 06:26 PM   #23
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nah, hes light compared to another guy who was overly obsessed with faith and wildcat...like..boderline scary...*Shivers*
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Old 16th Jul 2004, 06:45 PM   #24
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I suppose I might be too if I had seen a game model that wasnt modified from ut..
probably not but maybe XD
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Old 16th Jul 2004, 06:50 PM   #25
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DoA Beach VolleyBall for Xbox

*ediT* didnt wanna post buncha times --;;..sooo edit

the other guy was **** he played often as Wolfe and he seemed to have the undying passion to be in a shower with Faith and Wildcat at the same time....very distrubing --;;;
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Old 16th Jul 2004, 06:51 PM   #26
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 Originally Posted by Taika:
nah, hes light compared to another guy who was overly obsessed with faith and wildcat...like..boderline scary...*Shivers*
Who was this other guy? --;;
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Old 16th Jul 2004, 10:49 PM   #27
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 Originally Posted by Carth:
Who was this other guy? --;;
Pretty much every 1 out of 20 players on the pub servers
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Old 16th Jul 2004, 10:55 PM   #28
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That includes me, NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO...........
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Old 17th Jul 2004, 02:46 AM   #29
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Whats with the Wildcat/Faith is hot thing?

Everybody knows Jaeger's the hot one.
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Old 21st Jul 2010, 03:34 PM   #30
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It's not really *That* hard to emulate a human in a multiplayer game. Thats what I did for a thesis for my game dev engineer degree.
Basically, you just throw some neural networks and rngs together with a decent pathfinder. And perhaps a DT.
Teamwork isnt too hard either I'd reckon, but I didnt do that in my emulating AI. Time and all that happy jazz.

Replicating human behavior is trickier though...
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