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Old 27th Feb 2011, 06:30 PM   #301
The Dragon
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Without trying it out, I think it sounds like an extremely interesting idea.
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Old 28th Feb 2011, 02:04 AM   #302
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 Originally Posted by The Dragon: ( link to post ) 
It would be nice if thieves waiting to respawn could still communicate with the thieves that were still alive. This way this cool-down period could also used for strategizing, which I think could actually be a really cool addition and encourage teamwork. What happens during the waiting period? Does the screen focus on the spot where you died? Are waiting players allowed to spectate other thieves? I'd check it out, but I don't even have unreal tournament anymore.
At the moment thieves that die and still have (potential) lives remaining are placed in a team spectator mode where they can only spectate team mates. I believe they can switch between teammates (haven't testing this), not sure about dead to live whispering.
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Old 28th Feb 2011, 06:28 AM   #303
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I always was dissapointed nobody could read my bullshit/encouragement when i was dead. Implement plx.

Goes without saying that anything but team spectating would need to go then tho. Could need some sort of mute/server side on-off option too, id imagine. I mean not everyones bullshit is as interesting as mine :0
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Old 28th Feb 2011, 06:38 AM   #304
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 Originally Posted by immortius: ( link to post ) 
At the moment thieves that die and still have (potential) lives remaining are placed in a team spectator mode where they can only spectate team mates. I believe they can switch between teammates (haven't testing this), not sure about dead to live whispering.
You could just use Mumble or Teamspeak to get round this anyway.
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Old 28th Feb 2011, 07:01 AM   #305
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I'm not sure as in I don't know whether it works at the moment, not whether it should be implemented. Didn't think to test it.
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Old 28th Feb 2011, 09:21 AM   #306
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 Originally Posted by Schleicher: ( link to post ) 
I always was dissapointed nobody could read my bullshit
i dunno what are you talking about, but i agree, it seems to be a bullshit. :b
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Old 1st Mar 2011, 07:50 AM   #307
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Are you still here?
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Old 2nd Mar 2011, 05:09 AM   #308
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So, since installing Thievery about 36 hours ago I have played around on ProMod quite a bit - I played solo games for hours but also spent a few hours playing one on one. I just spent another hour or two carefully reading this thread so that I felt ready to intelligently contribute.

I hope it goes without saying that I appreciate the work that's being done by you guys, and the subsequent discussion that has unfolded here. So far, my only real qualm comes from now being unable to stack potions. I think I have a pretty good understanding of this game and an even better understanding of how these changes affect ghosters, and although I'm not happy about this change I get that it might have been necessary. I've only ever used invis + cat to grab an objective in a room that has been stacked with AI and bodies, loaded with traps and human guards - and even then it's not even CLOSE to a surefire solution. So I don't think it needs nerfing.

You're right - it's pretty much a surefire escape tactic. If a guard is chasing a thief anywhere outside (and in a large enough space, like the halls of Asylum, this applies to inside as well) and the thief uses the invis + cat combo, then yes, the thief will escape. But this thief has now significantly depleted his inventory. He probably took some damage, too. He used his catfall and invis to escape instead of saving it to grab that key objective. This thief got away with his life, but he is punished.

My point is, I think with the way things are stacked against thieves, if they want to waste that kind of equipment to fight another day, they should be able to. Because as far as grabbing objectives go, there are very few players who are truly skilled enough to consistently execute the cat + invis effectively in those key situations...those situations in which this combination is the ONLY option. As I type this, I am picturing countless games on Gerome. But that's not even a good example, considering the room is carpeted. We've both studied this game to death, and I don't think I NEED to come up with the perfect example.

If you really don't see where I'm coming from...consider raising the price of invisibility potions. I saw somewhere on this thread that you were already considering raising the price of catfall. Good, I'm all for it.

 Originally Posted by Rodent: ( link to post ) 
It's just a nerf to speed potions in general, toning down their use for rushing thieves, and meaning a thief without speed can have a greater chance to escape from a guard with speed.
Maybe I have a skewed perception of my own playstyle, but at the time when I was (apparently) considered one of the game's strongest ghosters, I considered myself one of the game's premiere rushers. As such (and without getting too upset that most of my old rush routes have been rendered unusable by promod, drastically changing early game strategy), I would ask that you consider pulling back the rush-nerf SLIGHTLY. If you're gonna nerf speed to tone down their use for rushes, as Rodent says, then consider not counting spawn invis as a potion (so that speed can be stacked on top of this invisibility). If not, then nerfing speed potions doesn't really do anything to prevent rushes...by implementing the no-stack change, you've already successfully cut the legs out from under any good rusher.

I'll admit that this is really my first look at ProMod, and you all have been thinking about this for a while now. I just wanted to throw my 2 cents in. That being said, I'm totally excited about lots of these changes, and excited to hopefully go through and relearn this game. The sound changes and stealth additions (like slow-moving silence) supports what I remember to be Rodent's ghosting style, but doesn't do anything for mine. That's okay, I'll adjust, but remember that there is more than one way to ghost a map.
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Old 2nd Mar 2011, 07:11 PM   #309
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It's basically a stated intention to cut the legs out from under rushers, and to make locations more difficult to lock down for guards. As you said, for thieves you cannot stack anything onto your spawn invis, which means you can still try to run into a location early but it's highly risky; for guards, you have less traps, less control over guarding AI, and firebolts and speed are less effective. Also, whistlers and lockpick sounds cant be heard across the map.

The speed changes were more to nerf guards than thieves but that's a side effect we're comfortable with.

Thievery had become a game where thieves would either rush and have the game effectively won early, or fail their rush and have guards dominate the map from that point forward. That was mainly due to the broken sound and the fact that the game scales poorly to larger player counts. So, the aim was to give thieves more ability to maintain stealth mid-game but make it so they can't instantly win the game by charging strategic locations. We've just come out of a long period of the game where the term "good thief" meant "good rusher", but an otherwise uncreative and not particularly skilled thief.

Disallowing potion stacking is a huge nerf, I agree. But so is drastically reducing firebolt radius (and with that, the ability to relight yourself/teammates with the ensuing fire crystals), lowering thrown flare radius, changing speed downwards and having weapon modifiers on during the effect, turning friendly fire (forcing guards to stop shooting / slashing wildly in packs), and others.

The tradeoff was giving thieves silent movement ability, and silent invis and catfall potions. Yeah, there are some situations where you need invis cat where the stacking is colossal and guards are everywhere. But in general, it's an "I win" button usable by anybody. Most exiting situations are a joke for guards when there's an invis cat in play, and let's not even talk about stacking invis / cat / speed and flash (formerly possible).

Eventually thieves will be able to drop loot to each other, as well. So you can load a thief up, but against many guards you'll need to assist his escape as a team rather than have him going in with invis, cat and speed. He can only choose one.

To date, these changes haven't been played enough to say with certainty they're the right choice - but the few games I have played under the new circumstances rekindled the excitement of having to truly think as a thief.
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Old 2nd Mar 2011, 08:03 PM   #310
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 Originally Posted by Shug: ( link to post ) 
It's basically a stated intention to cut the legs out from under rushers, and to make locations more difficult to lock down for guards.
I know that's your intention. As I said, I spent a long time reading this entire thread before I posted. I'm just pointing out that simply by cutting out the ability to stack in the first 10 seconds of the game, you've already achieved this goal.

 Quote:
We've just come out of a long period of the game where the term "good thief" meant "good rusher", but an otherwise uncreative and not particularly skilled thief.
Considering my above comment about rushing, I'm not sure if that's meant to be some sort of a dig at me, but if it is I would just say that I always considered myself (and many other known rushers) to be pretty damned creative. Rushing knocks guards off-balance; I would argue that it's always been one of the few options the thief team has to tip the game back TOWARDS stealth and creativity. An effective rush forces guards to patrol different routes, camp new areas, work together in a new (and more intense) way. With a great deal of luck a coordinated group rush might end the game quickly, but this is rare on public servers and in private games all the guards need to do is rush back...they're usually at the advantage here, a few rush-spawns notwithstanding (and you said you'd be dealing with these rush spawns, so that's good). More frequently, I think a rush might see one of two or three objectives being met, or one of two or three heavy loot areas being cleaned out, but not without the thief team taking some significant damage and using quite a few valuable invis pots / speed pots / flashbombs.

Rushing was ALWAYS my way of making sure that I would be able to rely on my own skill later on in the round, instead of (skillfully and creatively) playing all sorts of cat and mouse games only to run into an impenetrable wall of AI, humans, and traps.

Like I said, I understand the ways in which the guards have been nerfed. And like you said, there hasn't been nearly enough time to know whether or not all of these changes are good. I'm not passing judgment - I haven't spent enough time with them either. I just think that as stuff continues to be tested, we might find that the sound nerf ALONE is huge. So I'm basically just asking that you keep what I'm saying in mind as you continue to test, because I think there are other ways to do what you want to achieve without ALL the in-game nerfs (raising prices of invis, for instance...maybe even doubling them).

Also, I know that your goal is to balance this game out for the larger games...but what happens in smaller games, or more particularly, in big games where there is one thief left? Victory in that situation was always difficult, but without invis + cat it sounds like it would be impossible. Right, I haven't found myself in this situation since returning, and I'm not a good example anyway because I'm so out of practice. I'm all about rewarding teamwork, and promoting it on the servers - but what about when that's not possible? Should the last thief just give up?

Anyway, just food for thought.
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Old 2nd Mar 2011, 09:12 PM   #311
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Nah, it's a dig at guys playing 16 minute levels and thinking it was Thievery.

Also, rushing was essential. We're trying to change that dynamic on both sides, because it really is more fun to create a stealth experience where it's more reliant on player movement and timing instead of stacking powerful equipment on. Rushing into locations as a thief, or patrolling dark areas for enemies as a guard will still be possible, we're just looking to make it more about the player than the equipment.

It's still open for debate, we're just waiting for more hours of playtime logged before making further changes to those dynamics.

Just in regards to movement also: we've really brought things back soundwise to suit you - in stock 1.6 against most players your footsteps would be heard from a long way away, so running around was suicide for thieves. Hell, even creeping was.
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Old 12th Mar 2011, 03:38 PM   #312
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I have quite an interesting idea. Wouldn't it be better if players who have already finished round, couldn't spectate players from the opposite team? for example, if you played as a guard, and you had had to click out due to the lack of lives in guards team, you could spectate only other guards, and you would not be allowed to spectate thieves. This would highly decrease the possibilities of spechelping other players.
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Old 12th Mar 2011, 05:28 PM   #313
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 Originally Posted by Przemek557: ( link to post ) 
This would highly decrease the possibilities of spechelping other players.
if someone will want to spechelp, he will do it so, saying something like "behind u", or check that shadow right from u. etc. All people know, that spechelp isn't allowed, and i didn't rly see someone trying spechelping for long time.
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Old 12th Mar 2011, 07:58 PM   #314
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probably means like using teamspeak were you cannot see/hear them spec helping, wouldnt stop it of course, you just need a spec player who joined as spec to do it, also a reconnect would stop it which happens lots too. would be effective i guess but been able to watch both teams is far better for me :d
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Old 13th Mar 2011, 05:44 AM   #315
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and what about radars and all that nasty stuff
tried almost every anticheat and none is compatible with tut :/
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Old 14th Mar 2011, 03:16 PM   #316
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IIRC Antishockho works with Thievery.
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Old 14th Mar 2011, 03:38 PM   #317
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It's very old.
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Old 18th Mar 2011, 05:38 AM   #318
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Best way to stop any shenanigans is to have dedicated server admins imo.
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Old 18th Mar 2011, 10:03 PM   #319
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Basically. Even the most cutting edge and sly cheaters can be caught if you play them enough, see: Mr N and komandor.
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Old 19th Mar 2011, 09:49 AM   #320
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Old 25th Mar 2011, 05:40 PM   #321
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wut happened to promod, any news?

Just another tought: what would be, adding calltrops for thieves? It would help thieves, to escape from a chase, trowing a calltrop under the guards feet's, and make them para for few seconds.
Or some alternatives, like oil, to slow down the guards, as soon they step on it.
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Old 25th Mar 2011, 09:08 PM   #322
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 Originally Posted by Shug: ( link to post ) 
Basically. Even the most cutting edge and sly cheaters can be caught if you play them enough, see: Mr N and komandor.
were they cheating? got proof?

 Originally Posted by NeuroFunkeR: ( link to post ) 
Just another tought: what would be, adding calltrops for thieves? It would help thieves, to escape from a chase, trowing a calltrop under the guards feet's, and make them para for few seconds. Or some alternatives, like oil, to slow down the guards, as soon they step on it.
sweet idea, even easier ko thief tools! i have actualy already made these awhile ago as part of my ghosters mut, they are fun to use and better suited to ghosters gameplay then normaly tut tho. far to easy to ko a guard who can hardly turn around..
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Old 26th Mar 2011, 01:50 AM   #323
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You know better than I, keg, that UT99 is such an exploitable engine and the average anti-cheat tools are very subpar, because they haven't been updated in years.

Fortunately for us, Thievery's odd gameplay means you really don't achieve much of an advantage with an aimbot (other than melee weapon hits being 100% accurate) and it's very obvious.

On the other hand, radar hacks are a very useful weapon in Thievery. Fortunately for this community, server admins (back as far as LR and Grank) were very knowledgeable and did their homework on players, and the same thing has been done now. We weren't scared by bluster and aggression on the behalf of those players, and their methods were detectable by us as experienced campaigners.
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Old 26th Mar 2011, 05:06 AM   #324
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i see, shUH weren't happy about my idea at all... awwww.
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Old 26th Mar 2011, 05:46 PM   #325
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Sometimes to spot (or highly suspect) a cheat all you gotta do is spectate and watch the way their view snaps to the shadows (like I saw on TRS with a completely new player - or claimed to be) and how they magically get right to beside the thief as if drawn by some hidden force
......of course in Kegs case it's drunkeness pure and simple.... that makes his view sway all over the place like that

The calps wouldn't work since the idea is guards metal boots crush them so dont para themselves, but perhaps not oil but glue which slows down any player (and thus thieves could be caught out too) for a few seconds.
Highly expensive to purchase of course and adding glue on each other wouldn't increase the slowed down time further (because otherwise people would just do as with mines and lay them on top of each other).
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Old 27th Mar 2011, 05:06 AM   #326
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 Originally Posted by ]>CoD<[Chief: ( link to post ) 
Sometimes to spot (or highly suspect) a cheat all you gotta do is spectate and watch the way their view snaps to the shadows (like I saw on TRS with a completely new player - or claimed to be) and how they magically get right to beside the thief as if drawn by some hidden force
......of course in Kegs case it's drunkeness pure and simple.... that makes his view sway all over the place like that

The calps wouldn't work since the idea is guards metal boots crush them so dont para themselves, but perhaps not oil but glue which slows down any player (and thus thieves could be caught out too) for a few seconds.
Highly expensive to purchase of course and adding glue on each other wouldn't increase the slowed down time further (because otherwise people would just do as with mines and lay them on top of each other).
why would not oil slow down guards, but glue would?
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Old 27th Mar 2011, 10:55 AM   #327
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Because oil is a lubricant while glue is an adhesive.

Oil would work in a different way, perhaps because of the metal boots the guards would slide forward for a few seconds(or while in the oil slick) with no control of their direction. It seems this would be less of a DM tool and more of an escape tool.
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Old 27th Mar 2011, 12:11 PM   #328
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Oil and Thievery, smells like Thief 3.
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Old 27th Mar 2011, 05:02 PM   #329
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Smells like rodent's fantasy dungeon
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Old 27th Mar 2011, 10:01 PM   #330
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lol
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