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Old 6th Dec 2010, 03:12 PM   #61
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Problem here is will this encourage circle strafing again?
Every time I go in a server (not that i've been on a promod one mind) I see thieves drinking speed and running round guards smashing away with the blackjack.

Sure it isn't the old 'classic' circle strafeing from days gone by, but it sure makes it seem that way......
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Old 6th Dec 2010, 04:11 PM   #62
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The main problem is that it will break the game for low player counts. We want the game to balance for 4v4+ primarily, but still be playable under that.
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Old 6th Dec 2010, 06:51 PM   #63
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V16 is up and working, it fixes the bunnyhop/triplejump where you gather speed with consecutive jumps (much to my chagrin).

If you're on speed your first jump is fast but trying to string jumps will put you back to normal speed.
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Old 6th Dec 2010, 07:04 PM   #64
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 Originally Posted by Bandit: ( link to post ) 
Now it is so bad idea because in 16 seconds one thief can loot all what he want and with 30 seconds he can win the map.
In other words: delaying guards spawn = more koing and less ghosting. This is not what we want to see.
It's not what YOU want to see.

The mod is supposed to balance gameplay to allow thieves to accomplish objectives without DMing. a KO is not death matching.
It's also supposed to stop 3-4 man guard death squads roaming about in dark areas because they know there is very little risk to guard life banks doing it.


It's a team game, one person is not supposed to be able to do everything, for either side.
Guards get Koed, because they approach thieves without any regard for their surroundings, or caution in approach.

The main thing is suicides should not be rewarded with more gear, and insta spawn.

Koing is not a massive problem when there are ai about, arrow dming is the problem for guards.
Which is why kills do not incur a penalty.

Both approach's have downfalls.
It takes longer to arrow kill, but the cleanup time is null.
KOing, is instant, but you have to worry about the body afterwards, as well as any AI nearby.

The Helmet should be better I agree, but I think the issue is still with the way the BlackJack swing works, not the actual helmet.

If we could change the Charged swing to vertical, and the quick swing to horizontal (currently vice versa) then we would see a massive change in effectiveness.
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Old 7th Dec 2010, 03:02 AM   #65
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I'm not sure how switching the animations would change anything, given that it has no effect on the hit calculation. Unless you think having the BJ block part of the thief's vision is that significant?

I could drop the KO arc down from the 180 arc it currently is.
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Old 7th Dec 2010, 03:58 AM   #66
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How about actually having to hit the head in order to KO someone.
As it is you can sometimes knock someone out in the legs.
I foresee a problem with jumpin guards though.

What Agga meant was changing the actual area of effect for the swings. It is easier to hit if they flow on the horizontal plane than vertical and as it happens the one that hits easier is also a 100% KO whether you a helmet or not.
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Old 7th Dec 2010, 04:11 AM   #67
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Ah, hmm.. But that also means the easier swing takes less time to do too. Which makes KOs simpler against helmetless guards in general.
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Old 7th Dec 2010, 04:20 AM   #68
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I am fully aware of that and that's why I don't support it.
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Old 7th Dec 2010, 06:42 AM   #69
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If you're going to make the Ko'ing harder, then it should bring a greater reward like what Agg was saying.

Guards need to start looking after their lives a little more too, so a harsher penalty for getting Ko'd or killed should do the trick.

I also fully support penalties for suicide - I've never needed to do this even in my prime, TuF as a team never used this tactic and we're not the scrubby kind either - its poor form. I don't see why it should be an option now, it should be punishable.

The penalty should be harsh - lower loot spawn after every life taken (who cares if it messes up some ones load outs - let them sit and pick their stuff out) and a longer wait time before respawn.

Same goes for Guards.

You want to change the game then this will change it. It should at least get a pilot on the server and see how it works, if the double positives are causing a huge issue then it might need a tweak, but we all know not to stand in the doorway to the cellar on Grange, and jumping around the roof on Flats is a risk guards shouldn't really be taking for longer than a few minutes, and if you don't, well, learn not to - you'll have plenty of respawn time to reflect on it
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Old 7th Dec 2010, 07:17 AM   #70
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Okay, I actually meant change both the properties.

The Charge up attack would now be vertical (hence more difficult) and the Basic would be the horizontal swing.
It's been one of the biggest game mechanic niggles I've had since we did testing on it.

For everyones information.

You can Ko a guard who is next to you without even facing him. Most people spin purely because it feels right to do so, but there is no need thanks to the arc of the swing.
It's also why most players instinctively go to the left side when trying to KO, and why most people find it extremely difficult to attack from the right hand sight.
It swings from left to right so the more powerful attack is currently easier to get, since you basically have a 50/50 chance adding in both the arc of the attack, and what the game considers the back of a guard model.

If we switch it, including the charge up effect, 1 hit KOing will be automatically harder and the helmets 3 hits should work as intended.

As for respawn timers, all the arguments are valid.
It may seem like it promotes "DMing" but the changes are for ghosters mainly, since a ghoster will not KO/kill a guard unless he really has no other option then it really doesn't allow them those 15 seconds of free time does it. Guards should be attentive and careful as well.
Adding in the KO swing change would alleviate this as well.
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Old 7th Dec 2010, 09:10 AM   #71
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I'm all up for it as long as it will be optional and adjustable.

IMO everything that comes with promod should be optional excluding exploits (crack, flash, edge walking etc.) because it's very bad when admin is forced to use things that he would not use if he could.
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Old 7th Dec 2010, 10:26 AM   #72
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Fixes preventing players from avoiding the effect of flash/crack through dodgy measures will most certainly not be optional; things like frobwake delay, new sound, lockpicking radius etc are all configurable right now.
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Old 7th Dec 2010, 10:48 AM   #73
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+1

Also agree with Aggs Blackjack changes, have thought so for a long time. There is a devmode which shows you the swing of the BJ with little yellow dots which we used to use to practice with it.
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Old 7th Dec 2010, 11:15 AM   #74
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The only other alternative is adjusting the games idea of what constitutes the back of a guard model. This would also drastically change the way arrow DMing works.

For instance the guard on the balconies in Gerome/Skelston can be killed from what is essentially the side, because again the game considers the entire back 180 degrees as the rear.
If it was reduced to 120 both KOing and Damage Multipliers would be alleviated.
You would no longer be able to KO a guard simply by standing next to him, and having his back to a wall would make him immune to KO's/Arrow damage multiplier from the side.

I don't consider the model change a good fix personally, because guards are considerably tough enough as is. It would however reduce one shot AI kills. Since there are other ways to change that, it's really a matter of taste.
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Old 7th Dec 2010, 06:38 PM   #75
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Indeed, what constitutes a back shot on AI is a joke. It works now because AI are used to block doors, but once we've made those changes it will be much harder to backshot an AI and even if you pull it off it will no longer be a one hit kill.

The overall aim is to make AI harder to kill, but less effective. We don't want AI doing all the work that human players should, like using para, getting charged hits and nailing players while cracked. The end goal is to have them be able to defend themselves somewhat against a full DM, cover an area less effectively than humans in the absence of a real guard, and harbour the lives of the guard team.
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Old 8th Dec 2010, 12:53 PM   #76
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3 options then.

1.Change the hit boxes so that the front is wider than the back at the sides. I'm assuming it uses rectangles here.
2.Remove bonus damage to the rear entirely. (no more 1 shot kills)
3.Adjust the angle's if allowed, again I'm under the impression hitboxes are Rectangles so this is essentially the same as 1.

If it comes down to hitboxes it will change the gameplay a LOT. Since both arrow damage and Blackjack hit location are based on the rear of the player.

If the front hitbox was: 3 by 2 by 6 say.
The back would be inside that jutting out the back from that box: 2 by 3 by 6.

The back would effectivlely only be along the guards head, back, legs. Not his arms, shoulders, sides.
It would mean guards spinning to avoid getting KOed would work again (currently a guard doing this leaves himself open to 50/50 chance) and they could also back into a wall and be safe.
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Old 8th Dec 2010, 03:18 PM   #77
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 Originally Posted by Aggamemnon: ( link to post ) 
3 options then.

1.Change the hit boxes so that the front is wider than the back at the sides. I'm assuming it uses rectangles here.
2.Remove bonus damage to the rear entirely. (no more 1 shot kills)
3.Adjust the angle's if allowed, again I'm under the impression hitboxes are Rectangles so this is essentially the same as 1.
UT exclusively uses vertical-axis aligned cylinders for collision, meaning 3 rather than 1.

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If it comes down to hitboxes it will change the gameplay a LOT. Since both arrow damage and Blackjack hit location are based on the rear of the player.
These can be separately configured.
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Old 8th Dec 2010, 03:41 PM   #78
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i got knocked out once, being hit to the knees, maybe i'm missing something, but it's not alright.
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Old 8th Dec 2010, 09:36 PM   #79
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you're not really missing anything, the entire back half of the guard is counted as the back, whether its the tip of the head, or the toes doesn't matter.

Since it's angles, I'd say to keep the one shot kill, but make the hit box for the back 120 down from 180.

If the Blackjack swings are changed, then I'd say the angles are fine so maybe just adjust the damage on arrows to the back.
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Old 9th Dec 2010, 02:23 AM   #80
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There is actually a height check as part of the BJ code, you shouldn't get KOed from hits that are too low.
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Old 9th Dec 2010, 06:14 AM   #81
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Unless you aim specifically low, even a crouched thief meets the requirement with the swing arcs. The guard would have to be above you really.
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Old 9th Dec 2010, 06:53 AM   #82
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I'm a little late to the party here but if you want to discourage dming why don't you simply make it so that every KO or kill a thief performs they suffer some penalty to stealth? Either a delay to going invis or requiring less and less light to be fully invis, maybe making more noise etc? That way there's an incentive for players to keep out of sight and only interfere with the guards if they have to.

Personally I'd choose to increase visibility slightly with each kill/ko so that a thief has to lay low in a really good hiding spot until it wears off. There are a few variables to tweak for balance too, I'd suggest using a mix. An example may be best to describe this:

Thief KOs a guard, his visibility increases by 1 point for 30 seconds. He doesn't hide fast enough and another guard sees him, he manages to kill the guard after 10 seconds and his visibility now increases by another 1 point for 60 seconds. His visibility modifier is now at +2, after 20 seconds the first timer runs out and he's at 1 point for another 40 seconds (the remainder of the 60 seconds).

So the more dming a thief does their penalty increases exponentially. That may be a little bit more coding that Immortius wants to do so there are simpler implementations like keeping the visibility modifier fixed and just adding onto the timer for a second offence.

It would be fairly simple to add text to the screen stating guards are alerted to you/you are shaken from your fight and struggling to be stealthy etc. and a countdown so players would have a visual indicator explaining why they are easier to spot and how long they need to hide.
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Old 9th Dec 2010, 07:04 AM   #83
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Its a nice Ko model, stealth is at a % remember though and anything over 10% is visible, so maybe increase by 5%, and a few seconds, per KO.

Thinking about that, its a pretty brutal penalty. I like it!
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Old 9th Dec 2010, 07:35 AM   #84
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Wow that's something new. Haven't got any objections right now. I'll try to come up with something so that it actually has a downside to it too.
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Old 9th Dec 2010, 07:36 AM   #85
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Agga I'm not sure where you're getting that from. Crouching KOs have never worked consistently, you'll occasionally score some dodgy ones due to client side hits and lag.

Chains and Fix:
It's reasonably important to note that thieves were at a significant disadvantage. Implementing that kind of thing would be madness; our aim is to provide an alternative to DMing, not to force people one way or the other. Before we made any changes, DMing was the only reasonable option to beat guards in a 4v4 on most maps, or at least removing significant amounts of AI.

A stronger helmet will provide guards with extra protection against the blackjack, and bow DMing has already been nerfed significantly with bow-pull time determining damage (with a steep falloff). There's more to come in that department such as one hit kills being removed, among other things.

The simple fact is that ProMod started with the knowledge that thieves were critically underpowered in the current game. The broken sound system and the power of the guarding team scaling exponentially with each extra player were the main culprits, among other issues.

We're looking to change the game from the best guarding tactic being running around on the rooves (which it was) to a scenario where humans need to manage their AI properly and sloppiness like suiciding for equip or running around outside is punished.

Thieves need to be powerful in dark areas or the game becomes one sided extremely quickly.
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Old 9th Dec 2010, 07:41 AM   #86
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I don't believe discouraging DMing is an objective of pro mod as such. A balancing of it was more the goal.

I was thinking something more like relating the guard rear arc to how visible a thief is, so that a thief in full light has a more difficult time KOing a guard than one in shadow. This also serves to keep deep shadows dangerous for guards. Probably needs some visual indicator so thieves know whether they can KO or not.
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Old 9th Dec 2010, 08:33 AM   #87
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What has been done about the sound - other than making thieves silent crawl, has anything been done guardside?
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Old 9th Dec 2010, 08:37 AM   #88
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Landing noises, footstep noises, picking sounds don't carry across the entire map like they used to. You could literally hear even slow thief movements from a stone's throw away, which made running around in dark areas a lot safer for guards and more rewarding.

Immortius believed it an error with the way sound works on AI pathnoding, and changed the way sound propagates. I can't actually tell you exactly what he did, but it seems to have done the trick.
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Old 9th Dec 2010, 10:21 AM   #89
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Yeah, I appreciate my suggestion weakens thieves but it's all about balance. It offers a way to discourage outright dming without having to mess with the guards too much or get overly complicated. It means that it's still possible to DM but the penalty means players are more likely to weigh up the risk/reward involved. Combine this with the improvements you've made for thieves and I think it would prevent you having to make the guards too resistant to attack (and thus forcing the thief players hand anyway).
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Old 9th Dec 2010, 11:31 AM   #90
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Shug, got it from the fact I've never had a problem KOing to the legs. Maybe I just always aim high. A lot of guards used to both jump and spin when flashed and it never affected the outcome. You can still KO a guard on the walls of Grange if you are in the shadows below, again I could just be used to aiming high.

Messing with the ability to hide isn't the way to go imo. There are already more than enough ways to light an area, without them being able to use the shadows they have.

Making guards consider more carefully running about in shadows should be the main goal, there is not a major problem with KOing, I think it's more the fact there is not enough penalty for Guards losing lives foolishly, and that the payouts for doing so are too high, especially when there is no penalty for suiciding for gear.

A good KO should be rewarded and a timer is a good enough penalty for allowing yourself to get KOed. Being killed is different, there is no real reason a guard shouldn't come running straight away which is why I didn't suggest a timer for that.

We want to promote smart play on both sides. There is a reason that a guard calls for backup when he has a thief locked in a room. It's the smart thing to do. They should always be rewarded for making the tactical choice, and penalized for rushing around like crazy deathsquads hoping to get a lucky hit in shadows.
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