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Old 26th Oct 2012, 11:56 AM   #481
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AHHHH CHIEFISUM! no mapper read/try that!! thou shalt be cursed ever after!

one extreme to the other!
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Old 27th Oct 2012, 05:13 AM   #482
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 Originally Posted by Shug: ( link to post ) 
All changes to date:
...
- New sound system
...

When the Mockers picked TUT back up a few ... ago, we realized ...:
1) ... now common knowledge .... sound enhancements

With tweaked sound settings you can hear thieves ... even just walking from substantial distances away.

Give thieves more options for stealthy play...:
- Introduce a slow, soundless form of movement

Current Iteration: ThProMod Mutator v7.7

What immortius has already achieved:
- Experimental new sound system to lower ability to hear thieves all over the map despite sound tweaks
As I see sound tweaks were mentioned three times. I hope that Promod team know what they are did and can describe their views of effective stealthy play with this new sound system.

I'm not even talking about hearing all over the map. In fast pace TUT world it's not so important comparing with more close distances.

Immortius and Shug.

On what close tactical distance player with sound tweaks couldn't HEAR thief who is just walking? Or thief who is just crouching?

and other more important case

On what close tactical distance player with sound tweaks couldn't PINPOINT (with a bolt) thief who is just walking? Or thief who is just crouching?
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Old 28th Oct 2012, 06:36 AM   #483
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I'm not quite sure what you're asking. With that in mind, my answer is that players using a combination of ini tweaks including no ambience and things like openAL can always hear a thief in theoretical line of sight even if crouched.

Walking is also damn loud in 1.6. You can hear a thief making footstep noises even if they slide along a wall, because going super slow doesn't change the footstep sound, it simply spaces it further apart. A good way to test this is to slide along the vent in aquatone (by which I mean face the wall at an angle and press forward) and you'll hear the metallic striking of your feet at regular intervals.
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Old 28th Oct 2012, 07:01 AM   #484
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Pls understand my confusing. You mentioned sound tweeks three times in your start post. Thus I understand that your mutator could really nerf using of these sound tweeks.

So it doesn't matter is promod mutator is on or is it off on TUT server? Sound tweeks couldn't be nerfed by your mutator as I understood you.

Another question is sound tweeks legitimate?

As I see your point, Shug, you think that some people used/use them. So from that point they are legitimate? Cos it's hard to control players who use them? This is what we had/have in practise.

In theory it's more plain and simple:
  • Using sound tweeks is 3dparty programs = CHEATING
  • Sound tweeks give player unfair and uncounterable advantage
  • Not every TUT player know that he/she could use these sound tweeks
  • Even not for everybody these tweeks could work (hardware/OS restrictions etc)
  • Thievery gameplay and map design weren't constructed for using these sound tweeks. In other words if player use these sound tweeks every TUT map is broken.
Shug, what choise I have when I see player who (from my point of view) use these sound tweeks on current Thievery server?
  • can I report to admin in a hope to see some appropriative actions?
  • or I must to refuse join this server when this/these player(s) is/are in game. Even this wouldn't help much when this/these cheater or cheaters (I think I could name him/them so) would use aliase(s).
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Old 28th Oct 2012, 06:19 PM   #485
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It doesn't reverse the tweaks people used, it just circumvents them by changing the radius and threshold at which sound can be detected by players.

Allowing for truly silent movement also renders them less powerful. Of course, we're limited in what we can achieve (people can still turn off ambient noise), but by comparison to the previous system it's a very level playing field now.
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Old 29th Oct 2012, 12:48 PM   #486
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Did you really tested Promod mutator with sound tweeks? When listener and sourcer both are moving in different mixes of possible directions (S/W/E/N)? Did you tested radius/threshold for different movements (including jumping on one place) for different surfaces in separate tests? How many sound tweeks were tested?
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Old 30th Oct 2012, 12:03 AM   #487
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Let me ask YOU a question: what do you think a "Promod Test Server" might be used for?

If you find a bug or what you think is a problem, list it. Don't waste my time by questioning the guys involved in the project.
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Old 30th Oct 2012, 05:08 AM   #488
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No, I didn't found a bug, cos I can't clearly understand from this thread on which "substantial distances over the map" Promod mutator able to nerf sound propagation.

When mentioned distances become close encounter distances is also not so clear thing.

I just see that someone uses sound tweeks on server with Promod mutator. And these tweeks help him very well. It's not a bug as you see. It's legal cheat and nothing more.

Is that a problem? Problem for me? Well, I'm not a scrub so I say to you that sound tweekened enemy IS NOT PROBLEM FOR ME.

But I'm happy that sound tweeks were fully tested on Promod Test server in past.

Last edited by WTaFa; 30th Oct 2012 at 05:33 AM.
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Old 30th Oct 2012, 01:22 PM   #489
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to be honest i found if i just close my eyes for a moment and listen it's pretty easy to determine a rough direction for some sound ur listening for is coming from (rough direction maybe within 20 degrees)

i guess the main thing that stops guards from knowing roughly where thieves are with default 1.6, is because the AI walking makes the same footstep sounds as thieves.
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Old 30th Oct 2012, 04:25 PM   #490
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 Originally Posted by WTaFa: ( link to post ) 
tweeks....
Server mismatch - rejected. All most certain it's impossible, or at least a majoirty of what you could do with full run of the house.
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Old 31st Oct 2012, 01:15 AM   #491
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When I said 3d part programs in my posts above I was serious, Indus. Try to follow my thought more attentively. These sound tweeks are not hacked versions of unreal files, but true programs. And they are powerful enough. If you do not believe me, try to restore in your memory your recent whinnigs on Steam about Sheriff aka Kom. From what I heard from you, you wasn't happy.
 Originally Posted by MontyPython: ( link to post ) 
The sound localisation is better, plus you get a better idea of distance if you set it to roll of high frequencies with distance. So instead of just being "less loud" the sound sounds more distant.
 Originally Posted by MontyPython: ( link to post ) 
Tested and confirmed. OpenAl > Galaxy.
 Originally Posted by Keggie: ( link to post ) 
that plus suround sound would be good.... especialy in very dark areas.. altho one most maps its not really needed.. its only in large areas thats it becomes useful.. (however im thinking for guards) for thieves it would be very useful, maps like DE in guest i often wonder which door has just been opened and on which floor.. that could become very useful for a thief
 Originally Posted by Trapmaster: ( link to post ) 
What are you refering to, Louie? Do you mean altering original (sound) files so you have an advantage in the game?
When logging in on a server all your files will be compared to the server files and if theres a mismatch you can't join. So we are safe from this. I'm not sure if raising volume affects sound file size, but OpenAL is the hugest cheat anyway
So to play or not play with a player who has sound tweeks is question to play or not play with cheater.
Probably you could hope that you could counter such "fair" and "legal" advantage, but Thievery gameplay on all Thievery maps become BROKEN. Somebody wants to play it?
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Old 31st Oct 2012, 03:14 AM   #492
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Given that we can't control what audio engine a person chooses to use (or how high a person turns up their volume), the promod changes were focused on making sound more binary - so rather than having a lot large range sounds that scale from loud to incredibly quiet (without tweaks), we changed the sounds to be be louder within their radius, then quickly drop off before not being played at all. The default radius of sound was also greatly reduced.

Additionally we made thieves silent when crouched (and walking?).

It doesn't matter what audio engine a player is using, an unplayed sound is silent. As for the legality of using replacement audio engines, that is up to the server admins although I imagine it is difficult to enforce - a result of the lax security of the aging Unreal Engine.
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Old 31st Oct 2012, 05:57 AM   #493
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Can I gladly ask your confirmation about what
  • crouching
  • walking
  • both of em
is silent?
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Old 31st Oct 2012, 03:56 PM   #494
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Depends on speed and I think silent movement starts at 25% but I havent checked the game files, it's just what I found out playing.

It has something to do with these basic values
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Old 4th Nov 2012, 04:27 AM   #495
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 Originally Posted by WTaFa: ( link to post ) 
Can I gladly ask your confirmation about what
  • crouching
  • walking
  • both of em
is silent?
Crouching + creeping is silent iirc. Crouching and walking is too? But I'd need to check that on the server and sadly I can't right now.
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Old 4th Nov 2012, 05:12 AM   #496
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Actually, these are silent starting from the fastest:
crouching and running with a bow out (23.7% of standup run speed)
standing and creepin (20%)
crouching and walking (17%)
crouching and creeping (7%)

crouching and running is not (this is the default crouched speed)
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Old 5th Nov 2012, 03:48 AM   #497
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who needs sound tweaks when you have surround sound headsets, oh wait, i shouldnt of said that, its an unfair advantage and should be considered cheating
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Old 6th Nov 2012, 10:36 AM   #498
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Yes, but your tesco mouse and keyboard help counter-act the advantage Keg
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Old 7th Nov 2012, 03:58 AM   #499
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 Originally Posted by Keggie: ( link to post ) 
who needs sound tweaks when you have surround sound headsets, oh wait, i shouldnt of said that, its an unfair advantage and should be considered cheating
and what know? it's pointless to have such map design like TUT had? cos we have openal+surround?

everyone here have sound experience from past days? when sound tweeks and surround sound weren't discovered yet

what sound galaxy system fits Thievery gameplay? from old age or from new age?

if from old stone age ONLY then TUT gameplay (I'm not talking about broken map design already) has no future at all - every player would have own sound radar like in SC (wow it would become not so stealty uh?)
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Old 7th Nov 2012, 10:56 AM   #500
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Map design? Did TUT ever had a unified map design?

It would be nice to be able to check what sound drivers are in use, but afaik it cannot be checked by now, or if at all.
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Old 7th Nov 2012, 03:28 PM   #501
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 Originally Posted by Trapmaster: ( link to post ) 
Map design? Did TUT ever had a unified map design?
Well
....
whOOt?
you didn't read all threads from 2003 to see some universal things about it?
no excuse!
 Originally Posted by Trapmaster: ( link to post ) 
It would be nice to be able to check what sound drivers are in use, but afaik it cannot be checked by now, or if at all.
If guard often killed you with sword (or even bolts!) in full darkness (without shadowslashing and flares at all!)

If guard who usually patroll map (there are plenty of them) easily track you, when you make one or !OMG! two so "silent" foot steps (and then suddenly attack or ambush you!).

Someone cried about flarescanners and shadowslashers? How lame! What about sound scanners? Who never ever use flares during their patrolling!

Chest farming? What idiot need this? Real guard able to cover unlimited perimeter without any damned flare!

Someone cried about random shadowslashers? How lame! What about "random" shadowslashers that able to get you using their FIRST sword hit in large patch of darkness?

But in order to see so obvious strange things, that were mentioned above, Thief must be more attentive and analyze current situation almost every second. To be ready to do this Thief need to play really stealthy (Oh my God - no kos&kills!).
And escape only with flashes and invis pots (no crack arrows!). Thus it become more obvious when some lame ass ALWAYS could track and kill you by sound only, when you activly run and activly hide for life.
And of course you must to play against strong guards about whom we don't even think that they use sound gadjets. W00T? These players are strong cos they so so skiiiiiiiiiiiiiilleeeeeeeeEEEEEED, Yeah!!

Last edited by WTaFa; 7th Nov 2012 at 03:44 PM.
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Old 7th Nov 2012, 05:02 PM   #502
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 Originally Posted by WTaFa: ( link to post ) 
Well
....
whOOt?
you didn't read all threads from 2003 to see some universal things about it?
no excuse!
I am a mapper and I just played the maps and cannot recognize any real guidelines.

Nar, I am still waiting for a wiki that represents it for me in a nice and summarized form .

 Originally Posted by WTaFa: ( link to post ) 
These players are strong cos they so so skiiiiiiiiiiiiiilleeeeeeeeEEEEEED, Yeah!!
I think so too.

And I was just pointing out it would be nice to have such a thing as you can then stop making assumptions and check directly. Nice to have, wouldnt it be ?

And I just posted so everybody can see my new signature. But sssh... I would never do such a thing .
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Old 8th Nov 2012, 10:19 AM   #503
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duh! the guidelines would be occam
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Old 8th Nov 2012, 12:00 PM   #504
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Hm I still doubt every map looks like Occam .

Anyway did you notice my new signature?
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Old 9th Nov 2012, 12:40 PM   #505
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 Originally Posted by Trapmaster: ( link to post ) 
I think so too.
And I was just pointing out it would be nice to have such a thing as you can then stop making assumptions and check directly. Nice to have, wouldnt it be ?
Could you show me a gamer, or better some Taffer, who don't want to make assumptions?

It's nature of TUT. It was born on such engine. Kinda built-in-future - every player could change OMG! sound driver for our game. Muhahaha!

Also community was tight. Thus in such small community admins and experienced players using own assumptions could control what is going on servers.
 Originally Posted by WildBill:
 Originally Posted by Lurox:
Frantic will always have a place on my server, but I dare him to flare-scan (random flare lighting) the levels again. This is the one thing that really pissed me off.
A shame. I could have sworn I read your name on the list of admins who said they ran clean, honest, cheat-free servers. And, for that matter, the list at the beginning of this topic. So, since this is apparently not the case, you'll forgive me not gracing — or cursing — your server with my presence.
This is result of having just assumptions and nothing more. Cheater could be on current server? Then don't play there. Very simple.

Not every one need 100% proof, Trap.

 Originally Posted by Trapmaster: ( link to post ) 
And I just posted so everybody can see my new signature. But sssh... I would never do such a thing .

Well, it's nice and cool I believe. Congrats

As part of EDG can you describe last guild event in what your took part? How long ago it was on the timeline?

Also what the difference between activity of still 'active' and 'probably still active' members
 Originally Posted by ]>CoD<[Chief: ( link to post ) 
Probably Still Active Members if they return:
...
[E.D.G]Necros
...
Admining own server doesn't count as enough active step in our, almost killed by tweeks community?
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Old 9th Nov 2012, 01:43 PM   #506
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 Originally Posted by WTaFa: ( link to post ) 
As part of EDG can you describe last guild event in what your took part? How long ago it was on the timeline?

Also what the difference between activity of still 'active' and 'probably still active' members

Admining own server doesn't count as enough active step in our, almost killed by tweeks community?
what makes you think thievery is the only game EDG play in? trap recently played an event on my thievery server and he has done on and off over the last 2 years

active means still about, probably still active means they are currently MIA but might well appear and randomly play
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Old 10th Nov 2012, 06:16 AM   #507
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 Quote:
Could you show me a gamer, or better some Taffer, who don't want to make assumptions?
Me.

 Quote:
Also community was tight. Thus in such small community admins and experienced players using own assumptions could control what is going on servers.
Not to forget the 06/07 tyranny .

 Quote:
This is result of having just assumptions and nothing more. Cheater could be on current server? Then don't play there. Very simple.
And still players play there. So...?

But you made a point. I will quote this important post: http://forums.blackcatgames.com/show...1&postcount=14

 Quote:
Well, it's nice and cool I believe. Congrats
Aww thanks man . Just look at Keggie. He still is not even giving me a nice comment .

 Quote:
As part of EDG can you describe last guild event in what your took part? How long ago it was on the timeline?
Regular poking the chief sessions.

Hmm now what was the last event you took place as TGW member.... .

On a side note, this still is the promod thread, right ? Or is it? Really? Nobody knows!
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Old 10th Nov 2012, 02:58 PM   #508
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 Originally Posted by Trapmaster: ( link to post ) 
And still players play there. So...?
Everyone made own choise. Pay attention to my example btw - Lurox made one choise and WB made another.
 Originally Posted by Trapmaster: ( link to post ) 
Hmm now what was the last event you took place as TGW member.... .
I don't care much of events which were not in real Thievery Guild.
 Originally Posted by Trapmaster: ( link to post ) 
Regular poking the chief sessions.
Member of EDG don't remember when it was last important event of his Guild? Well at least thanx for sincere answer.
 Originally Posted by Trapmaster: ( link to post ) 
But you made a point. I will quote this important post: http://forums.blackcatgames.com/show...1&postcount=14
I don't get you. Does this means that you able to quote important post? Well you do this but I failed to see that you have own opinion about this post. I can't see why this post is important. It was just random idea that there is must be something import?
 Originally Posted by Trapmaster: ( link to post ) 
On a side note, this still is the promod thread, right ? Or
Promod is great stuff.

Last edited by WTaFa; 10th Nov 2012 at 03:27 PM.
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