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Old 29th Nov 2010, 03:44 PM   #31
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Yeah, there is a timer. We're tweaking it at the moment.

Guards can not move silently except with catfall
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Old 30th Nov 2010, 04:28 AM   #32
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You should increase the caltrops back upto to normal level, Salvage is right in that People have the option to take moss if it's needed.

I always took 2 moss no matter what, and I'm sure if 3-5 players per round did, there wouldn't be a complaint about that trap.

Guards may well spam objectives with them, but they also use them defensively when caught by more than one thief.

Am I wrong in thinking, traps used to disappear when the owning guard was taken out?
Is that not still true?
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Old 30th Nov 2010, 05:24 AM   #33
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I had this thought as well - especially now thieves can move silently on any surface if duck-crawling there isn't as much need for moss, if only to counter the (less) caltrops.

I tend to throw down caltrops if I'm trapping a thief or am cracked/flashed as a defensive measure. Funnily caltrops are better as a responsive tool, rather than the intended pro-active tool.

Traps still disappear when the guard is KO'd or killed - not sure about the Promod but its probably still the case.
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Old 30th Nov 2010, 06:03 AM   #34
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All the item limits and pricings are still up in the air at the moment.
You raise a good point about caltrops being used in the open defensively though, something which should be considered.
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Old 30th Nov 2010, 06:11 AM   #35
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 Originally Posted by Aggamemnon: ( link to post ) 
Am I wrong in thinking, traps used to disappear when the owning guard was taken out?
Is that not still true?
That is the case, but we're basically trying to give thieves option to win without killing / KOing in larger games, hence the reduction overall in traps.

It's all well and good to moss cals but when you're in the middle of AI and human guards, pausing to take out a bow is a death sentence (e.g. grange) unless the caltrops can be safely mossed from outside the guarding fortress.
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Old 30th Nov 2010, 07:13 AM   #36
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Okay, breath potions making players immune to crack is fully implemented with a 5 second timer. Guards cannot purchase breath (as normal) but may pick up the potions from dead thieves.

The bug crashing Flats and Gerome (the two maps that have breath potions spawning on them) has been fixed.

For some weird reason, the torch snuffer mutator is making the 5 second counter run at double speed, so I've removed it until we figure out what's going on there.

edit: thanks again to immortius torch snuffer works
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Old 30th Nov 2010, 07:39 AM   #37
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I'm having a few problems getting this working right, but I'll check everything properly when I'm able.

Personally, I've never had a problem getting a moss arrow where I need it, if it was a major problem, I'd rather add an alternative to the flash bomb which spreads moss, than to decrease caltrops on guards. Again though, if every thief took moss there wouldn't be any complaints, I think each trap should be balanced on optimal loadout as well as empty loadouts.

Few options.
Stop cals from stacking paralyze timers instead. That way you could run through 1, 3 or even 6 and still only be crippled for the default time once.
Add 10 to the price of cals, making moss more economical by comparison.
Change the number/size of cals in a group.
Add the moss bomb.
Increase the size/spread of moss.

A side note. A personal favourite of mine was to rush to major guard spots, and pre-emptively moss the entire area, making caltrops useless and allowing silent movement by the thief team.

Grange especially, I used to double douse the main hall, moss the entire floor, the dark stairs and the back entrances to the kitchen then run distraction so the guards only ever heard me running outside.
I'd do the same with good KO spots so good listeners would lose track.
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Old 30th Nov 2010, 08:25 AM   #38
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Yes, ironically like I said about the trops, moss can sometimes be better used pro-actively rather than re-actively.

Moss bomb awesome idea - could throw it at guards to slow them down or something...
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Old 30th Nov 2010, 08:44 AM   #39
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That would be a vine/sticky bomb eh.

Not against modifying broken or imbalanced things, but don't really need a speed pot, and a grenade that slows in-game together.

Moss bomb is purely so thieves can use it on the move, without the bow restricting them, since that was the counter point. Again, it would make my life easier since I could run through a level with them and not have to stop, would have to cost more than moss arrows.
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Old 30th Nov 2010, 11:16 PM   #40
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#41

Your 'counter-point' is the intended use of the breath potion. To offer thieves a way to escape a room with a single entrance being blocked by a guard.

Thieves are unlikely to purchase breath potions in any great number, as they are expensive and their use is very situational.
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Old 1st Dec 2010, 01:57 AM   #41
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Not sure if you realise that glad, but that was already possible without the breathing potion's new functionality. I demonstrated it 'on' shug recently.
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Old 1st Dec 2010, 02:32 AM   #42
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Of course you'll get out on rare occasions, but it's necessary to have a more reliable chance of escaping dead end situations like that. On Flats alone there are at least 5 single entry/exit loot locations, and it's also a problem on other maps.

Guards can still overcome such a tactic by calling for backup (their strength as a class is in numbers), whereas thieves should have a window of opportunity if they've made the right preparations.

You weren't here to talk about breath potions though
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Old 1st Dec 2010, 02:44 AM   #43
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Alright, so what's changed if guards can still overcome this by calling for backup?

The way they always could
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Old 1st Dec 2010, 05:26 AM   #44
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Thieves will have a small window of opportunity to crack the guard blocking the doorway, and run out with just a breath potion, without having to use invis cat while cracked.

Also in a room with multiple chokes, such as upper west wing, if you crack off the inside landing entrance, guards can't assume you escaped out the bridge. You still have two escape routes open without having to be cracked for 15 seconds (using breath).

Again on grange, say an AI was doorblocking the rear guardhouse, you could crack it in the doorway, wait for it to move, then drink a breath potion and loot the room without being cracked, or waiting for the crack to disappear.

I don't expect thieves to rush out and buy breath potions by the dozen, but on maps such as gerome and flats with existing breath potions on the map, it actually makes them worth frobbing.
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Old 1st Dec 2010, 05:57 AM   #45
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Also, you can run 4 man blockades on the exits of Grange, Nostalgia, Flats, and so on that are currently ruined by 5 man organized guarding sides.
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Old 1st Dec 2010, 09:10 AM   #46
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On the 'making helmets more useful' note, what about helmets being more useful against crack clouds?

Either make it pricier and it always reduces the time of crack cloud effects

or

A purchase on top of the helmet, like 'filter' that will prevent crack clouds completely (until the helm is KO'd off, course)
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Old 1st Dec 2010, 11:03 PM   #47
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I don't mind the ideas, but anything requiring graphic work is going to slow us down and require somebody proficient in that area. And we couldn't implement that sort of thing without a clear visual indicator for players (in terms of the filter, anyway).

We're now at v13 which has solidified everything in v12, and it turns out the problem with breath potions timing down too quickly also involved shopconfig. Until we fix that, guard trap restrictions are gone.
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Old 3rd Dec 2010, 03:10 AM   #48
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V14 of ProMod is now in use. Krondor Server is running a container mutator that means shopconfig isn't breaking breath potions anymore, so trap restrictions are back for guards.

Supply chest timer increases based on the amount of guard players, and there have been a few small fixes to solidify the code.
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Old 3rd Dec 2010, 04:24 PM   #49
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Perhaps for Cat/Breath potions immort could simply use the Shield Belt effect then lower the transparency and change the color to green/blue respectively. Only trouble would be applying the shadow system to those effects - not sure how difficult that would be.

I think visual indications are really important for those potions at least.
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Old 4th Dec 2010, 08:47 AM   #50
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Pro Suicides should be punished.
30 seconds would suit imo.

Also, put cals on 2.
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Old 4th Dec 2010, 11:49 AM   #51
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Yeah, we've already been discussing suicide penalties for a week or so. Reduced loot on spawn was considered a little impractical, so a sitout will have to be the option
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Old 5th Dec 2010, 05:29 AM   #52
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reduced loot would fuck peoples loadouts up, so yeah, timers is best I think. I always thought there should be a penalty for suicides. Especially so for purposely doing it, leads to sloppy play, especially on guards.
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Old 5th Dec 2010, 05:33 AM   #53
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Yeah we see people preparing for this change. They are cratering, letting bots attack and kill them and I'm sure there would be more creative ways to refresh their inventories.

Not to mention we need to avoid false positives, like when a guard is crushed by doors/lifts by a thief, but it counts as killing your own dumbself.
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Old 5th Dec 2010, 07:18 AM   #54
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Shame but you are right on that one. The best solution I can see is actually getting more players on so more of the lives are taken up at the start of the rounds.
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Old 5th Dec 2010, 08:09 AM   #55
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If the game can differentiate between a door/mover killing a player and typing suicide in console then we may be okay. Unintentional cratering will still result in punishment, but it's fitting that the reckless style of guarding on rooves carries more risk.
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Old 5th Dec 2010, 06:25 PM   #56
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I'd count any type of suicide in there.
Fire, AI, falling, typing suicide.
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Old 5th Dec 2010, 09:46 PM   #57
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I had thoughts along those lines as well.
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Old 6th Dec 2010, 07:06 AM   #58
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Actually thinking about it. If the first thing promod would have done was to put an arbitrary 30 second spawn timer on everyone, then a lot of people would of had to change their playstyle up already.

Guards used to be a lot more careful when KO's were permanent, and they are especially more careful once they are down to their last life already.
The only reason you had/have 3-4 man gank squads running around in full shadow is because they know even if they are taken out, they can be back there in 5-10 seconds and more than likely get the life back.

I know one of the goals is to allow ghosting, but if a KO means the guard isn't back in 5 seconds, it gives the thief the option of creating space in a tight situation.
It also has the effect of making guards think about how aggressive they are in poor fighting conditions. It also means you get a guard coming because they know something has happened, but not exactly what and where (because it wasn't them).

You could offset it by not having a timer if you are actually killed.

I'd say go for:
No respawn timer if you are killed.
16 seconds if you are koed.
30 seconds if you suicide/ai/door/fall/fire
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Old 6th Dec 2010, 07:27 AM   #59
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Ko's have always had little reward. Problem here is will this encourage circle strafing again?
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Old 6th Dec 2010, 07:35 AM   #60
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Promod already gives a lot of advantage for thieves and you want to let them to do everything what they want without worrying about just easily koed guards? Firstly make koing harder (enhance helmet) and we will see... Now it is so bad idea because in 16 seconds one thief can loot all what he want and with 30 seconds he can win the map.
In other words: delaying guards spawn = more koing and less ghosting. This is not what we want to see.

 Originally Posted by FixXxeR: ( link to post ) 
Ko's have always had little reward. Problem here is will this encourage circle strafing again?
You don't need to do circle strafe if your ping is higher than 200ms.
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