Ghosters

[WildBill]

3 ko's is a DMer?! no.. Freaky gets 3 ko's sometimes..is he a DMer? 4+ is DMer..consistently match after match..

And shug like i said.. u are my midnight rendezvous.. by that time Im so drunk or tired i just need to KO something and thats the majority of what i do.


I know what ghosting is.. but in all reality ghosting isn't even ghosting in thievery.. But the code of conduct is there.. but when I don't KO a single player in a map, and win by objectives, what would you call it? i'd say I "Ghosted" that map. Don't degrate people and put them into Classes... I may want to be a Ghoster one day and a DMer the next.. i have the same rights as everyone else. If I DM a map..then reload it and ghost it.. I've won it two ways. So wouldn't that make me that much stronger of a player? You guys seem to think just because I can DM, means that I am a DMer hands down everyday, everytime, DM DM DM. And DB, you've just said you haven't played with me since 1.2! I wasn't even a good DMer in 1.2! I didnt come out of my shell till 1.3, So why are u partaking in this post at all?! You haven't seen me play.. It's all hearsay.

No, you don't understand what ghosting is. There isn't some number of KOs, and after you hit that number you aren't ghosting the map any more. That's simply absurd. There's more to ghosting than not KOing. The "rules" you refer are nothing more than an attempt to formalize the consequences of a mindest. A mindset that you don't seem to have grasped, even though I'm sure there are rounds you don't KO.

It's my understanding that Freaky has stopped ghosting.

The drunk or tired excuse got old the last couple times you used it. Come up with a new one, and try to be a bit original this time.

Playing with you and watching you play -- or hearing from someone else who has -- are two different things.

[LaughingRat]

DM'ing is a state of mind, just like ghosting. I've specced you plenty of times, KAM, and a DM'er you are. You actively stalk guards, to the point of staying in an area when they've been alerted to your presence, very singlemindedly attempting to make an entrance from your one chosen direction, regardless of the number of guards there, rather than going somewhere else and attempting to get the loot there. Your play is so focused on getting in the one specific way you've chosen, no matter how many guards you have to take out, that you ignore other, far better and safer routes and loot to grab.

Now if that's the style you want to play, that's fine. But don't complain when it becomes ineffective, and don't try to paint yourself as something you're not.

[Shug]

3 ko's is a DMer?! no.. Freaky gets 3 ko's sometimes..is he a DMer? 4+ is DMer..consistently match after match...

And shug like i said.. u are my midnight rendezvous.. by that time Im so drunk or tired i just need to KO something and thats the majority of what i do..

I know what ghosting is.. but in all reality ghosting isn't even ghosting in thievery...

The difference between you and Freaky, is that you go LOOKING for KOs. Frequently. Freaky is interested in removing traps, and saving himself and teammates. And so what if I always play you at midnight? If you play so much tired and drunk (God knows why, try leaving the house) and KO while doing so, then you deserve to be labelled a DMer. I've played against you a LOT, Kewl.

If you want to have a whinge over the elitist nature of classing ghosters then at least acknowledge that's what you're doing. Ghosting is about going entirely unobserved, rather than just not touching any guards. That's minimum-force play. This isn't about the strengths of styles, either. Nobody has been bringing up these things except for you.

[LaughingRat]

Anyone else love catfalls as much? :grin:

Aggamemnon does. But he doesn't use them to escape.

[CrouchingDork]

Kewl, admit it. You're a DMer.

Everybody here agrees, give it up.

Now, say it with me, "I AM A DMER!"

"I AM A DMER!"

[Curunir]

Well, I don't ghost, admittedly; I suck too bad. I know it takes practice, A LOT of practice and I've put the time into it, trust me. I just can't do it. I'm not even really a good "DMer" as I use to be called. I use to be good at it, but lack of playtime and commitment have rendered me rusty. I respect those who ghost, but I also respect someone who can take out 3 guards at one time, unless you're Nemesis and like to teleport all over the place. DMing isn't a few KOs, as ghosting is none. I agree with KAM on his ideas of ghosting and DMing; it takes a lot of consistent playtime of that style to become one or the other. But also, why can't one be both? Darkbill is the best example that comes to me here. Anyone play with him when he aliases as WildBill? Omg... DM heaven. Heck, he even likes to Mario KO the hell out of people when he's "ghosting". :roll: I'm just saying, you don't HAVE to be one or the other, it's ok to be both.

[WildBill]

Curunir, I've tried your tactic of forcing ghosters to mario KO you a couple times. It even worked on Dragon once, and the hell he raised after it was quite a distraction to the thief team. I've even got a screenshot around somewhere. ^_^

[Master-Builder]

Right... a ghost is... well... a ghost.
Now, i'll pull in a new way of defining a ghost.
Let's have a look at... Hitman 2 - Silent Assassian.
In this game you would be rewarded with a reward depending on how stealthy you was, contra to how violent you. If you stealth was in the bottom and your Violence was way you were a "Mass-murder, psycho" or something.
If your stealth was way up, and your violence at the bottom. You were a "Silent Assassian"
Now, what if you filled up both those meters? Then you would become a... "Ghost"
You were never seen, or heard... yet you took out all the guards.
Now, the the hardest of these to achieve is of course the "Ghost" rating, since you can take out a guard without getting seen or heard.
Now, im not saying a Hitman ghost transfers into a thievery ghost, cause he dont.
But every single hardcore dmer in this game lacks stealth skills.

Now, this may just be me... But if a thief were to take out a guard in the... WTF? way, without any of the other guards noticing this (Of course you would have to hide the body.) I would still consider it ghosting.
If the guards aware of your presence, and is running into a shadow knowing your there... It wouldn't be a "WTF?" knockout, and it wouldn't be ghosting....

Now really, am i totally wrong here?

Notice, im not aware of any dmer that is cabable of pulling off a WTF knockout on every guard he knockout.

[Shug]

Now, this may just be me... But if a thief were to take out a guard in the... WTF? way, without any of the other guards noticing this (Of course you would have to hide the body.) I would still consider it ghosting.

Time to coin a new, original term. Ghosting, or Lytha style, has been around since TDP and was modified only slightly to fit TUT.

[Master-Builder]

Oh oh, also remember that in thief... Guards wouldn't mind the noise of their buddy being knocked out less then half a meter from them... Not so in thievery.

[The Dragon]

<Snip>

You've hit the nail on the head there, Sisu. You've just reminded everyone EXACTLY what I intended for this thread. I had no desire to hear someone say, "I like to think of myself as a ghoster, but I KO when needed." This just increases the misperception so many Thievery players have on exactly WHAT ghosting is. More and more, I'm starting to remember that not everyone in this community plays Thief, not everyone ghosted the Thief games, and not everyone understands the ghosting philosophy. This becomes crystal clear when I read what some of you are saying. Now, granted, I know KewlAzMe ghosted the Thief series. I'm not saying you had to ghost these games in order to ghost Thievery. What I am saying is that ghosting is a frame of mind...a true ghoster understands the rules, which is the first part of becoming a ghoster. But more than that, a ghoster knows the mindset which is necessary to ghost, and it is NOT what many of you suggested. Sisu is exactly right with what he said here.

I do not disagree with you, Kewl...in fact, I think I agree wholeheartedly with the people who say that the most effective playstyle for a thief is a stealthy, ghosting-style thief who fits in the occasional "WTF!" KO. I adopted this playstyle myself for some time during 1.2, so I know how effective it is. But what you don't see, Kewl, is that a lot of us ghosters aren't setting out to win every game. I can only speak for myself, of course, but if I cared about winning so much, I would not be a ghoster, I'd be a hybrid, like suggested above. But I play, not to win, but for the thrill, for the great sense of accomplishment when I successfully ghost a number of guards and win the map, and for the pride that I feel for mastering such a difficult skill. That is why I ghost...and I can bet that others will say something along the same lines.

Oh oh, also remember that in thief... Guards wouldn't mind the noise of their buddy being knocked out less then half a meter from them... Not so in thievery.

But you see, MB, knocking out guards isn't ghosting anyway, even in Thief. It was getting through a level completely undetected, with no violence, and no alerted AI WHATSOEVER. If anyone said, "I'll find you," and started a search, the game was up.

As people have said, these rules were modified slightly for Thievery...humans knew you were there, so the undetected part was kind of hard to accomplish. But the no-violence is still there, and the undetected part remains an essential part of the ghosting strategy, which is what so many people forget.

Anyway...Sisu had the right idea. This thread was not intended to be a debate on what ghosting is or isn't (That's already been established, there's no changing the rules now. If you want to come up with a new playstyle, come up with your own name, ghosting is taken), or how effective it is, or compare ghosters to DMers. No, this thread was meant for people to discuss the deeper parts of ghosting. The feelings behind it, the philosophy, the cool moments, and to get might-be ghosters interested. Who gives a flying fuck if Kewl considers himself a ghoster...the true ghosters no it isn't true, and I think most of the community does as well. I'm not saying anything bad about your playstyle, Kewl, because I've played with you when it was effective. But please, please, don't call yourself a ghoster just because you ghosted 1 map, because you AREN'T. And if you only KOd 1 or 2 guards, that's great for you. But that doesn't make you a ghoster. :wink:

Just my thoughts on the matter.

[Master-Builder]

But you see, MB, knocking out guards isn't ghosting anyway, even in Thief. It was getting through a level completely undetected, with no violence, and no alerted AI WHATSOEVER. If anyone said, "I'll find you," and started a search, the game was up.

Ahh, but that's the whole point. In thief you could knock out every single guard without alerting non of the other guards.
Not so in thievery.
But knocking out an AI still makes you a dm thief in my mind. But if your able to get the WTF? on a human guard without getting heard or spotted by any other guards, i would still consider that part of ghosting.

[LaughingRat]

Ahh, but that's the whole point. In thief you could knock out every single guard without alerting non of the other guards.
Not so in thievery.
But knocking out an AI still makes you a dm thief in my mind. But if your able to get the WTF? on a human guard without getting heard or spotted by any other guards, i would still consider that part of ghosting.

The definition of ghosting in Thief included not killing or KO'ing. The idea was that no one would know you had been there until they noticed things missing, which would NOT be the case if you KO'd even a single guard.

KOing in Thievery is the same deal. No matter how you twist it, it's NOT in the definition. Ghosting = NOT KO'ing, period.

[Curunir]

Why is it so hard for people to understand what ghosting and DMing is? They are both extremes, but there IS a middle area where you can be niether. :roll:

[TafferBoy]

As I've heard LR mention on another post there are many definitions of a DM thief. I won't go into these, but basically a pure ghoster is someone who never uses violence and Ko'ing to either win or take an objective. However many players prefer not to let a team-mate get minced to death in-front of there eyes and this is when you step in and make an easy and important KO.
OMG! OMG! A DM THIEF!
Ghosting like Dm'ing is just another style of play, should people really feel ashamed of being labelled a Dm'er, really that is pretty silly .
Who really cares, its part of the game and without it the game wouldn't be the same
However as this is a thread about ghosting, I think its more of a principle like many others have said, its how you decide to approach each level and what you do in a confrontation. Ie. try to run away and hide or stay and fight etc.
I found that after playing thievery for I while I just got the inclination to use a minimum force approach and i'm sure other more subtle thieves and ghosters have found the same thing.
As Yenz mentioned the combination of Dm'ing and aggresive play works well with ghosting, the distractions can make any ghosting attempt go much smoother. I should know tried it with impulse a fair bit, although sometimes he wins by Ko's before I can gather all the objectives! :grin:
Some players my play as both ghoster sometimes and Dm'er at other times, that dosen't mean that they are one or the other, but probably they enjoy one of the two game styles more than the other.
:swordthi: or or
They are just different ways to play this game and it dosen't really matter which you prefer, as for me I find ghosting more fun!