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Old 24th Feb 2003, 09:14 AM   #1
-=V12US=-
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I've come to the conclusion that Thievery has one of the best communities if not THE best community of every game I've ever played, and that is not an exxageration.
I know about 99% of all the people I play with online, and I like allmost everyone I play with, it's not that I hate the others, it's just that I don't care as much about them.

Frankly, if I were to stop playing TUT, which seems unlikely at this point
I'll most probably still keep visiting the forums just because I've made many a friend here.

"Then what is wrong" do you ask? Well... it's hard to explain without stepping on any toes, so if anyone is going to feel offended, then rest assure in the fact that it's constructive critisism...

Currently, we are... instead of protecting our community from scum such as Myg0t... purging our own ranks from players just because they might be doing something we don't like. I'm talking about Laughingrat and in some extent CTG.

What I'm currently noticing is something that could best be compared to the US vs. IRAQ thing, notice that this is my standpoint and not neccesarily the view of anyone, this is how I think about it and it is not open for discussion.

Seriously, you guys are doing great effort in providing us with servers and information on hackers and everything, but you need to drop the charges on the friendlies damnit. You don't need to protect us from everything.

I'll finish this one later, gotta yet. At least you got my point for now.
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Old 24th Feb 2003, 09:29 AM   #2
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 Originally Posted by -=V12US=-:
I've come to the conclusion that Thievery has one of the best communities if not THE best community of every game I've ever played, and that is not an exxageration.
I know about 99% of all the people I play with online, and I like allmost everyone I play with, it's not that I hate the others, it's just that I don't care as much about them.

Frankly, if I were to stop playing TUT, which seems unlikely at this point
I'll most probably still keep visiting the forums just because I've made many a friend here.

"Then what is wrong" do you ask? Well... it's hard to explain without stepping on any toes, so if anyone is going to feel offended, then rest assure in the fact that it's constructive critisism...

Currently, we are... instead of protecting our community from scum such as Myg0t... purging our own ranks from players just because they might be doing something we don't like. I'm talking about Laughingrat and in some extent CTG.

What I'm currently noticing is something that could best be compared to the US vs. IRAQ thing, notice that this is my standpoint and not neccesarily the view of anyone, this is how I think about it and it is not open for discussion.

Seriously, you guys are doing great effort in providing us with servers and information on hackers and everything, but you need to drop the charges on the friendlies damnit. You don't need to protect us from everything.

I'll finish this one later, gotta yet. At least you got my point for now.
Virus we aren't purging anyone. We brought something to the other guilds attention. If we provide them information they can do whatever they want with it. We aren't forcing them to purge themselves of anything. I don't know if you read my posts in the Thievery Guilds section on this but the letter one of our members recieved makes it clear TUF was willing to use inside information on guilds.

If a guild is going to work hard working out a strategy for a match and then one of there members is going to betray them then what can you expect? We gave them several days to come forward and set things straight with either the community or just their guild. They didn't choose to do this. They didn't even choose to explain themselves or questionable things that were mentioned in the letter my guildmate received. They essentially backed us into a corner.

I'm equally tired of LR getting blamed for everything when he isn't the sole person in it. I'm the one the brought this to the guilds attention. Almost every guild then came forward expressing their concern and disgust. LR just provided some proof. If you want to have a scapegoat then blame all of us.

I really think TUF has had a opportunity to come forward and set things straight. If they choose not to and we then we expose them then its their fault imo.
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Old 24th Feb 2003, 09:50 AM   #3
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Ok, say I was in the same position as you and LR.

1) I'd probably not abuse my moderater right to seek IP's and post them anyway.

2) I'd probably PM the member concerned and tell him/her i know who they are, what are your intentions? blah blah blah

3) They'd message me back explaining stuff

4) If i was happy with the reply the issue would rest, if I wasn't I'd maybe PM the guild leader of the member in question and suggest that member X be investigated.

5) I'd give them more than a 'couple of days' figuring that I'm a bit of a post whore (I appear on the first screen of posters) and maybe give them a little longer to reply given the seriousness of the accusations.

5)problemo solved, or on the way to solved.
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Old 24th Feb 2003, 09:56 AM   #4
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 Originally Posted by TheMachine:
Ok, say I was in the same position as you and LR.

1) I'd probably not abuse my moderater right to seek IP's and post them anyway.

2) I'd probably PM the member concerned and tell him/her i know who they are, what are your intentions? blah blah blah

3) They'd message me back explaining stuff

4) If i was happy with the reply the issue would rest, if I wasn't I'd maybe PM the guild leader of the member in question and suggest that member X be investigated.

5) I'd give them more than a 'couple of days' figuring that I'm a bit of a post whore (I appear on the first screen of posters) and maybe give them a little longer to reply given the seriousness of the accusations.

5)problemo solved, or on the way to solved.
This is more of a public issue in imo. The other guilds need to be in on it considering TUF infiltrated them. There was a discussion where you had a chance to explain yourself. The other members of TUF still have that opportunity.
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Old 24th Feb 2003, 10:20 AM   #5
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Not that it matters for what has already happened, but for future things I think we could better address these types of situations.

Just random thoughts on the subject.

The post made by Grank was on Friday. I did read it once on my way out of the office. I usually don't visit the forums on the weekends. So as far as a time limit I would of liked it if it were longer then 3? Days. Maybe a week or at least 3 days during the week.

I would do or suggest it be handled like TM said. To pm or email the person you found out and to contact the guild they are in. That way they could try and work everything out before it got out of hand. Case in point I see TM's stand on the subject more of a difference of view. That is if he did not send the pm in to the CTG member.

Making IP public I don't know much about the subject but making personal info like that seems kind of not right.

I think that's about it.

I also like 99% of the people I have played with in game. I find everyone (for the most part) pleasant to one another.
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Old 24th Feb 2003, 10:42 AM   #6
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 Originally Posted by [RLF:
Kore (V)acLoed]
Making IP public I don't know much about the subject but making personal info like that seems kind of not right.
Kore, I didn't just wantonly post private information. I knew before posting those IP's that TM was on dialup, which means he gets a new IP every time he logs in. The chances of someone harming him with that information are equal to his chances of being harmed by a random ill-doer choosing an IP randomly.
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Old 24th Feb 2003, 10:44 AM   #7
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or put another way, he would have a better chance of being
struck by lightning.
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Old 24th Feb 2003, 11:11 AM   #8
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 Originally Posted by Ghostly apparition:
or put another way, he would have a better chance of being
struck by lightning.
Err. Actually, yeah. I hadn't even thought of it in those terms.
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Old 24th Feb 2003, 11:29 AM   #9
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Ugh, I just got back and before I read any replies I wan't to state that this all probably sounded alot more hostile than I had intended, also I have no idea where I was going with the US vs. Iraq thing so scrap that please. Ok, now for the replies.
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Old 24th Feb 2003, 11:33 AM   #10
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 Originally Posted by -=V12US=-:
Ugh, I just got back and before I read any replies I wan't to state that this all probably sounded alot more hostile than I had intended, also I have no idea where I was going with the US vs. Iraq thing so scrap that please. Ok, now for the replies.
No problem, V12US, when something like this happens, tempers often flare, and emotions peak. All in all, things seem to be calming down nicely and quickly.
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Old 24th Feb 2003, 11:38 AM   #11
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Okay, first of all... LIGHTEN UP!

This is just a game, who gives a flying fuck about who's doing what in what guild, were just here to have fun, right? RIGHT?

Unless any guild aproaches you for help you don't need to help them, and certainly not with anything that has to do with members aliassing.
Fact is, Machine is right and LR is not. Twist it anyway you want, it still is abusing Moderator powers.

And Grank, I know you started the post, but Laughingrat was all to eager to show of his shiny new moderator powers, and sometimes I get the impression that the whole CTG clan is one big 'FBI' organisation and I have to watch my ass for being accused of hacking or cheating when they're around. Seriously, I like all CTG members but somehow I feel like I'm constantly being watched whenever one is on the server.
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Old 24th Feb 2003, 11:45 AM   #12
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 Originally Posted by -=V12US=-:
Okay, first of all... LIGHTEN UP!

This is just a game, who gives a flying fuck about who's doing what in what guild, were just here to have fun, right? RIGHT?

Unless any guild aproaches you for help you don't need to help them, and certainly not with anything that has to do with members aliassing.
Fact is, Machine is right and LR is not. Twist it anyway you want, it still is abusing Moderator powers.

And Grank, I know you started the post, but Laughingrat was all to eager to show of his shiny new moderator powers, and sometimes I get the impression that the whole CTG clan is one big 'FBI' organisation and I have to watch my ass for being accused of hacking or cheating when they're around. Seriously, I like all CTG members but somehow I feel like I'm constantly being watched whenever one is on the server.
This unfortuatly is how I feel also. The other day on flats, I was on the big flat roof, and I just had a feeling, a gut instinct about something, so I jumpped down to the floor below and ran into a house, there was the last theif, i didn't see him, hear him or have any reason to believe he was there.

It was only afterwards I thought to myself how DODGY that could've looked.
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Old 24th Feb 2003, 11:47 AM   #13
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 Originally Posted by -=V12US=-:
sometimes I get the impression that the whole CTG clan is one big 'FBI' organisation and I have to watch my ass for being accused of hacking or cheating when they're around. Seriously, I like all CTG members but somehow I feel like I'm constantly being watched whenever one is on the server.

I must say we work very hard to keep it clean. That means all of CTG take the time to keep an eye on things in the server and have the means to clean house if they need to.
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Old 24th Feb 2003, 11:49 AM   #14
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I agree with grank. LR gets blamed for everything. ( like mad gerbil also said )

I guess tomorrow people are gonna say Lr started WW2.

Let the man go guys! Lr din't do anything wrong .
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Old 24th Feb 2003, 11:50 AM   #15
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I think it's time for...








.....A great big group hug!!!!





*watches people scream and flee in terror*
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Old 24th Feb 2003, 11:50 AM   #16
-=V12US=-
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 Originally Posted by TheMachine:
This unfortuatly is how I feel also. The other day on flats, I was on the big flat roof, and I just had a feeling, a gut instinct about something, so I jumpped down to the floor below and ran into a house, there was the last theif, i didn't see him, hear him or have any reason to believe he was there.

It was only afterwards I thought to myself how DODGY that could've looked.
Jeah, I think that when a 'miracle' happens leaving you with a feeling of "damn, I hope noone saw that" instead of "wow, that was cool!" things are pretty bad...
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Old 24th Feb 2003, 11:52 AM   #17
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 Originally Posted by PhaeThorn:
I agree with grank. LR gets blamed for everything. ( like mad gerbil also said )

I guess tomorrow people are gonna say Lr started WW2.

Let the man go guys! Lr din't do anything wrong .
I disagree err wait no I don't.

Damn it Phae you posted something I couldn't disagree with.
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Old 24th Feb 2003, 11:53 AM   #18
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 Originally Posted by Curunir:
I think it's time for...

.....A great big group hug!!!!

*watches people scream and flee in terror*
I'm not hugging you man! I'd rather get shot by Thwark's six shooter.
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Old 24th Feb 2003, 11:54 AM   #19
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 Originally Posted by -=V12US=-:
 Originally Posted by TheMachine:
This unfortuatly is how I feel also. The other day on flats, I was on the big flat roof, and I just had a feeling, a gut instinct about something, so I jumpped down to the floor below and ran into a house, there was the last theif, i didn't see him, hear him or have any reason to believe he was there.

It was only afterwards I thought to myself how DODGY that could've looked.
Jeah, I think that when a 'miracle' happens leaving you with a feeling of "damn, I hope noone saw that" instead of "wow, that was cool!" things are pretty bad...
Agreed.
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Old 24th Feb 2003, 11:55 AM   #20
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 Originally Posted by Grank:
 Originally Posted by -=V12US=-:
sometimes I get the impression that the whole CTG clan is one big 'FBI' organisation and I have to watch my ass for being accused of hacking or cheating when they're around. Seriously, I like all CTG members but somehow I feel like I'm constantly being watched whenever one is on the server.

I must say we work very hard to keep it clean. That means all of CTG take the time to keep an eye on things in the server and have the means to clean house if they need to.
I'm fine with that, but get rid of that friggen Gestapo image and stop putting your noses in other people's business. Making sure your server is clean is fine with me, but lets just keep it at that okay? Thievery does not need to be policed, if anything happens the whole thievery community can take care of it, and we don't need a band of lone gunmen to do so.

This is my final statement, I don't hate or dislike anyone, I just want some people to take this game a little less serious.
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Old 24th Feb 2003, 11:56 AM   #21
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I swear guys! I don't take after BO... err... I mean BA! I use swear I use
deodorant/anti-perspirent!



Edit: I also wear cologne that ISN'T cheap!
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Old 24th Feb 2003, 11:59 AM   #22
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 Originally Posted by -=V12US=-:
I'm fine with that, but get rid of that friggen Gestapo image and stop putting your noses in other people's business.
When TuF entered turfwars and 'infiltrated' other guilds, it became their business.
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Old 24th Feb 2003, 12:00 PM   #23
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 Originally Posted by mOdEtWo:
 Originally Posted by -=V12US=-:
I'm fine with that, but get rid of that friggen Gestapo image and stop putting your noses in other people's business.
When TuF entered turfwars and 'infiltrated' other guilds, it became their business.


Correction, it became every guilds business.
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Old 24th Feb 2003, 12:01 PM   #24
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 Originally Posted by mOdEtWo:
 Originally Posted by -=V12US=-:
I'm fine with that, but get rid of that friggen Gestapo image and stop putting your noses in other people's business.
When TuF entered turfwars and 'infiltrated' other guilds, it became their business.
Euh, why exactly? Can't the guilds take care of this themselves?
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Old 24th Feb 2003, 12:02 PM   #25
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 Originally Posted by Curunir:
Correction, it became every guilds business.
True, but Virus somehow only blames LR and Grank for this, although it (should) concern every guild. That's why I put it that way.
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Old 24th Feb 2003, 12:04 PM   #26
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 Originally Posted by -=V12US=-:
Euh, why exactly? Can't the guilds take care of this themselves?
What if some of the TuF's was a part of the RLF, and you were supposed to play a turfwar match against them, then they would know every detail about your 'plans', wouldn't they?
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Old 24th Feb 2003, 12:07 PM   #27
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 Originally Posted by mOdEtWo:
 Originally Posted by Curunir:
Correction, it became every guilds business.
True, but Virus somehow only blames LR and Grank for this, although it (should) concern every guild. That's why I put it that way.
This thread is not only about what happened to Machine, allthough it makes up for a large part of it.

This thread is about the fact that I've been reluctant to play with CTG members for fear of being 'investigated'. The only reason I blame Grank and Laughingrat the most is because they are the guild leaders.

In general, the whole CTG clan is assigning way too much responsibility too themselves.

I hope I've made myself clear this time.
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Old 24th Feb 2003, 12:07 PM   #28
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I was as involved in this as LR. Why is nobody blaming me here?
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Old 24th Feb 2003, 12:08 PM   #29
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I give up.

/me runs away before Thwark gets home...
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Old 24th Feb 2003, 12:09 PM   #30
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Okay, a couple of points here:

1) About Cheating: Nobody has ever been banned for the 'lucky move' you described. People who get banned for that stuff do it 4 times per game ALL DAY LONG. I've done stuff like that before and didn't worry about it because anybody who watches me also knows I'll blow 500 flares and go whole games without finding a single thief. The only person who has been banned for cheating like you've described had over 40 hours of observation invested in busting him AND the observations were made by 1/2 dozen people in a myriad of games over two weeks.


2) I'm unclear as to how LR & Grank were to handle this nonsense. Are you guys upset that they checked people's IPs? Those IPs are the only way to verify people are who they say they are. Just recently a match was fubared in UT because a ringer was brought in.

How would you feel if your team was going up against the RLF and you thought Mad_Gerbil was thieving but in reality it was Frantic under an alias? Suddenly Mad_Geril has all the moves and you get your butt owned. How would you feel about that match? Would you congratulate the RLF on it's win or would you be pissed that I let a highly skilled thief outside of the team take the place of a thief who isn't sure how to hold a BJ?


3) If you are in Turfwars the RLF will not play your team until ALL players have had their IPs verified. If you are uncomfortable with that arrangement, then do not play in the Turfwars against the RLF.


4) I appreciate Virus' viewpoint on things. It's not fun to have a game sullied in this way since we are all here just to have fun. However, the consequences of not being vigilant is a server full of cheats and ragers and matchs being more the result of spies, thrown games, and backstabbing than skill and teamwork.
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