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Old 25th Feb 2003, 08:19 AM   #1
Chainsaws
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SPOILER: If you don't like reading and you just want the juicy bits about the TuF skip to just above the quotes. I'd rather you read it all but know you all won't want to.

Well thankyou very much Laughingrat and Grank, once again you've sent tremors through the community with your witchunting. The time was that I thought of you as someone who looked out for this community, someone who was dedicated to keeping the ragers and undesirables out of this community. Now I see a different side of you, I see someone who runs around burning people at the stake to either boost his own popularity or reduce that of others. You may joke about CTG taking over the community but I think a part of you, deep down, wouldn't be so upset if that really did happen. I'm disappointed with your actions over this whole situation and while I understand your concerns over possible cheating I'm disgusted in the way you've carried this whole thing out. While I lay ill in bed you've tried to rip apart my guild and disgrace one of it's members. Not only that but you've upset a lot of people in the process, many who were initially neutral to begin with. I came back to these forums to find that you had decided our waiting time of about 1 day had expired and you were going to start spilling the beans on us. Can you honestly say you expected that to go down well for any of my members? No, I doubt you can which is why I find it hard to believe that you did this entirely out of decency.

Not only that but the way you were posting about 'time running out for us to come forward' I could almost see the glee at getting the chance to show off you deductive powers to the community, sometimes you take it all too far - just because someone hides something from you does not make them your enemy. When I had got back to my computer I find these forums in turmoil and my own guild forums in chaos, none of them knew what was going on and I had dozens of requests for guidance on what to do. In all of these e-mail and PM's from my members I must have missed the ones from you or Grank asking us to state our intentions or declare more information before we could participate in matches for the sake of fair play. Oh, wait, I just checked YOU DIDN'T SEND ANY. Thanks for trying to make yourself 'da b0mb' by posting it out publicy and showing how many secrets you can spy out from people.

While it's not wrong, if used for the right reasons, you just can't go around spying on people - especially not for your own ends (which in this case I suspect was either your fear of a spy in CTG or to show off). A lot of people are beginning to see CTG as Big Brother and that's not an image that is approachable. As a fellow moderator on these forums I regard your use of the IP tracker an abuse of your moderator rights for your own ends. Regardless of whether it was to back up existing information or not, it was wrong. TheUnforgiven hadn't cheated or done anything wrong, except of course tried to hide from you - apparently the greatest sin of all. Indulge my curiosity, would you have named me if it had shown my IP next to the Keepers? What about someone in your own guild?

I would have been happy to have discussed this with you over PM or e-mail. If you'd been reasonble about your requests I would have considered teling you (or a neutral party) our identities and explaining to the community our intentions but you didn't give us that chance. We set up something to enhance this community and you burnt it to the ground, well done.

I would also have understood if you had been unhappy with our responses via pm that you would have gone public with this. If you're going to say that that might have taken to long and we could have played a match before it was sorted out then you could have just put our team on 'hold' while it was sorted out.

As it stands, it looks like our members will be reforming The Unforgiven under our true aliases. We do this reluctantly because it has been forced, but we would have done it anyway if that is what the majority of the guilds had wished. I also want you to know that we have not done if because you have asked that it be so, we have done it becuase it is the with of (seemingly) all the guilds and we do it as an act of good faith.


SKIP TO HERE-----------

Here follows the letter I had started that was originally going to be from The Sandman before I decided to show my real alias. I'm sure I've left a lot out of both parts of this post so any questions on the ethics/rules of the guild are welcome (a memberlist will be posted soon once it is all sorted out). Any flames, spam etc are not welcome, I said what I said above because I feel I have a valid point, it is not there to flame - it is because I am genuinely upset over this (No, Omega, you can't have my stuff ).

If Lr, Grank or anyone else feels they need to send me a private message over this I would rather do that than bore people here unless it is something you want to say before the whole community, which is equally welcome.

I'd also like to that everyone who has offered support to us and TheMachine over this. Particularily Omega (and I think mOdEtWo also) who had guessed that I might be in the TuF (I assume through adminning at Mog's) but had the integrity to say nothing publicly because at the time no-one had been called into disrepute. (I may be wrong about this though, they never said anything specific about it).

 Quote:
Dear community,

Firstly, I apologise for our delay in replying but you have brought up points which have required great consideration and discussion.

Secondly, I am disappointed. Disappointed at the hatred some of you seem to have for us. Hatred which, I can only imagine comes from your fear and uncertainty. I thought better of some of you than this.

Now, to adress the points you have raised:

In simple terms; we do not cheat, we do not rage and we are not out to harm this community - more to enhance it.

If I may step out of character for a paragraph might I point out that this is a game, I play it for fun and I am too mature to take any pleasure in a victory which does not come from my own skill, wits and intelligence and as leader of this guild I excpect no less from any of our members.

I think the main thing many of you are worried about is that we will steal your tactics before a match and that we have spies in all your guilds and I agree, that is something to be concerned about. I do doubt, however, that we are the only ones who have aquired information by trickery and deceit. The difference is what we do with the knowledge we aquire and after all, that is the most important point here.

Every guild out there has their own tactics and secrets which they like to keep to themselves to give them the edge in a match. As our part as Keepers we strive for knowledge and I can guarantee that no single player (with the possible inclusion of some of the devs) knows all the secrets and tricks on the levels that we do. Something which may surprise you, and whch certainly disappoints us, is that despite our intelligence network we have discovered nearly all of these tactics through our own thorough exploration of each map. The thing is, we love knowledge and learning, it is part of what a Keeper is, part of us.

Our guild is a very close community and while I allow the members more-or-less a free reign I expect them to follow certain rules. There have at times been infringements of these rules, as can be expected of any novice, but such infringements are severely dealt with. Above all I appreciate that our secrecy makes people naturally suspicious and I frown strongly upon any member who who, through whatever actions, brings the potential for disrepute down upon us. I would rather lose a member of the guild than allow them to cause our reputation great harm and, due to the strict rules I set down for members, it has been necessary to consider this course of action in the past.

I was aware of some of the potential problems of forming this guild when it began and as such I have been very harsh with members who disobey our rules.

Whilst many guilds do not allow members to also be a member of another guild this is not one of our tenets. If a member of our guild chooses, of their own free will, to also join another guild then they are allowed to. Also, although very rare, if a member of another guild wishes to join us we will also allow it. There are two reasons I say very rare; We will not actively (despite the above error) recruit a member of another guild who has rules against it, we will also not accept requests to join our guild for obvious reasons (such as double-agents) but instead will invite those players we believe have the skill and, more importantly, the integrity and maturity necessary. Our standards for recruitment are much higher than those of other guilds because, instead of pure game skill, we look for people who play a fair game, do not cheat, are helpful to newbies and who actively contribute to the positive aspects of this community.

Any member of our guild who goes against the wishes of another guild by breaking the 'one guild only' rule does so at their own risk. They know that they would be expelled from that guild for being found out and, quite possibly, be expelled from ours for allowing themselves to be discovered. They have chosen to join another guild to contribute to our knowledge of tactics, level tips and hiding places. I would not be surprised if there has never been a player who has secretly joined two guilds under different aliases for their own ends. A lot of you may now be panicking about fixed matches etc. Allow me to try and allay those fears. If a member of our guild were also in another guild and we were scheduled to play that guild in a match there are several strict rules that our members must follow.
# They must choose, well in advance, which guild they wish to play for. Once this is chosen they cannot change their mind.
# Whichever guild they choose to play for they are not allowed to attend the practices of the other, nor discuss or read discussions on said tactics.
# They will play their absolute best on either side (meaning that against TuF the other TuF members will have to change their regalar tactics). Once they have chosen a side to play for they are commited to them.
It's not quite finished since I changed what I was going to post but it should give you the idea of our intentions. The recruitment letter to CrouchingDork was a one off mistake in stating we would fix matches, we were in discussions about whether this was possible at the time and it was, I can only imagine, put in by mistake. We since decided before entering for any matches (as you can see) that fixing matches would not be fun, it would make our victories hollow and worthless and was not what we formed the guild for - it arised as a side-effect.

To end on a less serious note one more thing. Once you see who our members are you'll realise that we didn't need to cheat anyway, we'll 0wn j00 all!

I am The Sandman no more, I will be henceforth known as Chainsaws~TuF~.
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Old 25th Feb 2003, 08:28 AM   #2
Tisfulakistakagela
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big words!!! I want to see the answer I want to see the answer ( I hope its not that big cause I am tired when I read a lot of english )
:grin: FFFFFLLLLLLLLLAAAAAAAAAAAMMMMMMMMEEE ON THE WAY!!!!!
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Old 25th Feb 2003, 08:37 AM   #3
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I think its a little late to share this information with the TUT community. The damage has been done, general dissatisfaction towards TuF can be felt throughout the servers and guilds.

Also, to prove that you are emerging from the shadows as you put it, post a list of all your current guild members please. If you aren't confident in doing this Chainsaws, then what you have said will be completely disregarded in my opinion :wink: .
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Old 25th Feb 2003, 08:44 AM   #4
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1) LaughingRat and Grank are not alone and they are not participating in witch hunts. I fully support every action they've taken up to this point. I think the larger community is completely unaware as to how many total lozers are kept out of this community by the efforts of these two.

Furthermore, every guild leader and their membership is upset at what TuF was trying to do. You are trying to slay the messengers (LR and Grank) and forget that FAG, RLF, TOB and other turfwars guilds want no part of this sort of infiltration.

Your argument is with the majority, not with LR's supposed abuse of admin rights.


2) I see a huge hole in the ruleset you have for TuF. Please think about this rule for a bit:

"# Whichever guild they choose to play for they are not allowed to attend the practices of the other, nor discuss or read discussions on said tactics."

This means 1 of 2 thingsusing TheMachine as an example)
The Machine plays for the RLF.
In this case it means that TheMachine is unable to take knowledge he's learned and share it with TuF. What good is he to TuF then? If all your members are learning secrets they cannot share then what is the point?

TheMachine plays for TuF:
This means he cannot attend a Wraiths practice. I have to ask what good is he for the team then?

In either case, I think it stretches credibility to ask the leaders and members of guilds involved in TurfWars to have an open mind about a team composed of spies who've infiltrated every other team. I think it gets downright silly when you ask us to believe that your members are going to perfectly abide by a rule that I'd find difficult to abide by, much less enforce or verify that it has been followed.


3)
Chainsaws said:
"While it's not wrong, if used for the right reasons, you just can't go around spying on people"

Enuff irony there to choke a horse.


4)
Chainsaws said:
"As it stands, it looks like our members will be reforming The Unforgiven under our true aliases. We do this reluctantly because it has been forced, but we would have done it anyway if that is what the majority of the guilds had wished. I also want you to know that we have not done if because you have asked that it be so, we have done it becuase it is the with of (seemingly) all the guilds and we do it as an act of good faith.

You say it's been forced and then you say you are doing it in good faith.
I'll tell you why your doing it, you are doing it because there isn't a single guild out there that will match unknowns.

Period.


5)
I was wondering if I might join TuF. I'd like to attend your practices and see your strategies. Have no fears when you play the RLF though, because you have my word that I won't let the RLF know a single thing you've taught me.

Do we have a deal?
Is that a bit hard to *buy*?
Is that any different than what you've asked the rest of the community to swallow?
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Old 25th Feb 2003, 08:47 AM   #5
[RLF]Kore (V)acLoed
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Only actions I feel TUF must take is to let other guilds that have TUF members in them know who those people are. I don't feel the general public needs to really know the names of the TUF members. I do like the idea of not knowing whom I'm playing against. But I do disagree with your policy to allow your members to join "at their on risk" other guilds. That opens up to many possibilities.
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Old 25th Feb 2003, 08:54 AM   #6
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Did you consider how the members of the Guilds would feel when they find
out they have a Tuf member also in thier midst?
Alot of Guild members are going to feel betrayed.
It sounded kind of good on paper, but in reality I believe this to be poorly
thought out.
What about somone who played a previous match with another Guild
then a match with Tuf comes up and they choose to play on your team?
Wouldn't they already have the regular Guilds tactics?
No matter how you slice it, it wouldn't be fair.

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Old 25th Feb 2003, 08:56 AM   #7
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 Originally Posted by impulse:
post a list of all your current guild members please
Yes, the reason I have not done that here is that I want final confirmation from all the members who are staying before I do it without their permission.
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Old 25th Feb 2003, 09:13 AM   #8
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 Originally Posted by Chainsaws:
 Originally Posted by impulse:
post a list of all your current guild members please
Yes, the reasone I have not done that here is that I want final confirmation from all the members who are staying before I do it without their permission.
Thats pleasing to hear, the sooner you post this list (after consulting the players involved) the better. It will clear the air a little I believe.

As with ghostly, I am concerned for those guilds who contain TuF members also. I hope you are aware of what you are about to do.
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Old 25th Feb 2003, 09:14 AM   #9
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 Originally Posted by Mad_Gerbil:
I think the larger community is completely unaware as to how many total lozers are kept out of this community by the efforts of these two.
So that gives them the right to bully out existing, well respected players too by trying to bring disrespect on them?
 Quote:
Your argument is with the majority, not with LR's supposed abuse of admin rights.
My argument is with how him and Grank handled this matter - poorly.

 Quote:
I see a huge hole in the ruleset you have for TuF. Please think about this rule for a bit:

"# Whichever guild they choose to play for they are not allowed to attend the practices of the other, nor discuss or read discussions on said tactics."

This means 1 of 2 thingsusing TheMachine as an example)
The Machine plays for the RLF.
In this case it means that TheMachine is unable to take knowledge he's learned and share it with TuF. What good is he to TuF then? If all your members are learning secrets they cannot share then what is the point?
The idea is to not share what a particualr team is going to do for the upcoming match. There was nothing said about gathering information on general tactics and tricks (something which can be gained without spies anyway, albeit more slowly).
 Quote:
TheMachine plays for TuF:
This means he cannot attend a Wraiths practice. I have to ask what good is he for the team then?
Again, this referes to any practice in preparation to a match against us, not general practices or practices for a match vs. another guild. I apologise for not making that clearer.
The use a member would show to the team would not be just to gather tactics and tricks, they would also know all of ours and were happy to share them at practices in a sort of fair trade for information gained. We may have been spies but we were still doing it for fun, which meant we wanted to include some element of fair play in it, it was just 'roleplaying' for a bit of fun.
 Quote:
In either case, I think it stretches credibility to ask the leaders and members of guilds involved in TurfWars to have an open mind about a team composed of spies who've infiltrated every other team. I think it gets downright silly when you ask us to believe that your members are going to perfectly abide by a rule that I'd find difficult to abide by, much less enforce or verify that it has been followed.
That's why we choose our members, not them choose us. Sorry if you don't have enough willpower to stop yourself from cheating if the opportuninty presents itself, I ensure that our members do.

 Quote:
Chainsaws said:
"While it's not wrong, if used for the right reasons, you just can't go around spying on people"

Enuff irony there to choke a horse.
Perhaps you're reading from a different hymn sheet here....I don't see any irony here (although I admit the sentence structure is a little hard to follow, read it again).

 Quote:
You say it's been forced and then you say you are doing it in good faith.
I'll tell you why your doing it, you are doing it because there isn't a single guild out there that will match unknowns.
We weren't forced to do this, we were force to take action and this was our choice. The alternative was to disband and let any members in other guilds remain with them or we could have pretended to disband and still spied on everyone - maybe forming a new guild of our own once we'd stolen all your l337 tactics. No wait, this is just your paranoia talking. We made the choice of coming out into the open because we had that coice and we decided it was the best of our options.
 Quote:
Period.
No need to ram the point down my throat, I'm intelligent to get it the first time thank you.

 Quote:
I was wondering if I might join TuF. I'd like to attend your practices and see your strategies. Have no fears when you play the RLF though, because you have my word that I won't let the RLF know a single thing you've taught me.

Do we have a deal?
Is that a bit hard to *buy*?
Is that any different than what you've asked the rest of the community to swallow?
While I'm stopped myself from being as offensive as you in my replise I can't help myself here. JUST. FUCK. OFF. Your pathetic sarcasm is really starting to wear thin, it stopped being funny ...wait, it never was. I've never had much of an opinion of you eiter way before but please don't make me dislike you.
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Old 25th Feb 2003, 09:19 AM   #10
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 Originally Posted by impulse:
As with ghostly, I am concerned for those guilds who contain TuF members also. I hope you are aware of what you are about to do.
I'm sorry for this too as it's become rather a messy situation. I had hoped that through our spying and gathering of information we would also have contributed a strong player to each of these guilds and shared with them some of our gained knowledge making all of the guilds stronger. (After all, we weren't REAL spies, we were doing it for fun so it seemed much better to sacrifice realism for fair play).
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Old 25th Feb 2003, 09:21 AM   #11
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Ok Chainsaws, thanks for clearing this up!

I found out that I had nothing to do with exposing you, cause it really wasn't my table - I'm not in a guild.

I must say, I'm very glad that you will continiune being a member of this community, and a member/leader of TuF. May you have many good matches in the future, looking forward to play with you guys again.

Further, I have said what I ment about the whole case - I'm staying in the middle.
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Old 25th Feb 2003, 09:23 AM   #12
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 Originally Posted by Tisfulakistakagela:
big words!!! I want to see the answer I want to see the answer ( I hope its not that big cause I am tired when I read a lot of english )
:grin: FFFFFLLLLLLLLLAAAAAAAAAAAMMMMMMMMEEE ON THE WAY!!!!!
Sorry Tis, that's why I put the spoiler in so you could skip some but it's still a long post for anyone who doesn't have English as a first language.

Basically, I'm the leader of the Unforgiven (TuF) and we're forming a new guild with our proper names. We never meant to cheat or spoil anyone's fun. The rest of the discussion is mostly about how the whole thing was handled so you can ignore it if you want (it's mostly arguments and accusations )
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Old 25th Feb 2003, 09:29 AM   #13
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Could you guys give me a link to the TUF rules? Im not sure if they are available.


I have one question regarding TUF: (it's a bit long)
ME, as you all know i was part of Legend for some time until i left to do some mapping.
Right now i have no guild but lets assume i join CTG. Since i was already part of a guild how can I make everyone believe that I am not using all the info i got on practice matches (only atended 2 but still...) to my advantage.
Im just putting this up because some times i like to experiment some counter tactics which envolve trapping certain routes that I know players will use.
I do not know the rules of TUF (that's why I asked for the link), but for what i read TUF is basically opened to people who only had one guild or at least that's the idea i got.

Chainsaws already pointed out the problem but IMO i think there should be soem sort of "exclusivity period". Let's take Mach's example. Although he plays for two guilds he should stick only to one guild while TUF is going on. Of course that this would require a sttrong compromise betteween both guilds in order not to break the rules.
Like most people said it's a matter of trust.
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Old 25th Feb 2003, 09:43 AM   #14
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Chainsaws:

If your intention to come public with TuF was partly due to the commencment of turfwars, you do realise whether LR encourages you to proceed with your plans or not, the players have the power to refuse all challenges from TuF. As I said before, you could be entirely disregarded by the TUT community which would almost make your efforts seem pointless.

In addition, can I suggest that those players who are currently members of other guilds and are considering TuF, stay with your current guilds. As I see it, we have a healthy and fair competition in turfwars, why ruin it by regrouping in another guild at the risk of folding others.

Finally, if TuF are interested in role play then have a look into D&D; it is the ultimate role playing experience.
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Old 25th Feb 2003, 09:47 AM   #15
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 Originally Posted by Chainsaws:
While I'm stopped myself from being as offensive as you in my replise I can't help myself here. JUST. FUCK. OFF. Your pathetic sarcasm is really starting to wear thin, it stopped being funny ...wait, it never was. I've never had much of an opinion of you eiter way before but please don't make me dislike you.
Oh, but I'm not being sarcastic.
I really want to join TuF.
Do you have a problem with that?
I'm sure you don't, since you can certainly afford to give me the same trust you expected each and every member of the community to give every member of TuF.

The moment I suggest TuF live with the same situation you've asked every other guild to accept I'm told to FUCK OFF.

Ya see, the pleas for trust and understanding all sound so good until somebody asks you to do the same thing yourself. All of a sudden trust and understanding fly out the window in a barrage of foul language and personal attack.


************************************

Don't you pretend to be civil.
You've insulted my friends LaughingRat and Grank just about enough here.
It isn't their fault that your poorly planned idea didn't fly. It isn't their fault that you did something ALL THE GUILDS IN TURF WARS FIND REPULSIVE.

LaughingRat and Grank have been very restrained if you ask me. They spend hours trying to get guilds to work together to set up a fun match system and you blow in here with some half cooked spy plan and screw it all up and then have the nerve to attack LR and Grank as power hungry.

You stupid arrogant bastard.

In my whole life I've never seen a community so willing to screw people who put up servers, build tournaments, and other wise contribute..... screw those people for the sake of some lame ass cheater who puts on a cute sob story and only asks that we have the decency to ignore the evidence and believe them.

Any more of this bullshit and I won't permit the RLF to match the newly formed TuF either. I don't have time for bastards who don't have the decency to admit they've screwed up and apologize. I don't have time for bastards who are so self centered they cannot see the importance of Grank and LR's efforts.

Take your martyr complex elsewhere, it ain't playing here.
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Old 25th Feb 2003, 09:56 AM   #16
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Chainsaws said:
"The recruitment letter to CrouchingDork was a one off mistake in stating we would fix matches, we were in discussions about whether this was possible at the time and it was, I can only imagine, put in by mistake."

My Response:
So you actively try to recruit CrouchingDork so you can fix a match.
LR and Grank provide proof of this.
LR and Grank are then called power hungry and destructive to the community.

So when LR and Grank don't provide all the evidence (as with Frantic) then they are going too far by keeping stuff secret.

Then, when hard evidence is presented (as with TuF) it's dismissed as an accident.

Well I've yet to accidently compose a note to CrouchingDork asking him to sell CTG up the river. Perhaps I'll understand your position a little bit better when I start having these sorts of accidents.

Frankly, I'm getting pissed at just how stupid you must think we are to buy this nonsense.
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Old 25th Feb 2003, 10:02 AM   #17
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Chill a little bit, everyone. And can the hostility towards TuF be toned down a little bit as well. Even if you don't agree with their guild or their decisions, these are decent people here -- let's have some respect.

The premise behind TuF -- a shadow guild with hidden membership -- is a questionable one. I don't think argument about this issue will lead to anything except the locking of this thread. I thought the idea was kinda cool, but I think it's been shown not to work in practice. Both the possibility of abuse and the fear of it make it impossible for TuF to really match another guild while their membership stayed aliased.

They're coming public now, though. There'll be some shocks and waves when their memberlist is posted, and a couple people will have some hard choices to make, but TuF isn't a shadow guild anymore. I wish them the best of luck as a public guild, and hope others do the same.
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Old 25th Feb 2003, 10:26 AM   #18
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 Originally Posted by impulse:
Chainsaws:

If your intention to come public with TuF was partly due to the commencment of turfwars, you do realise whether LR encourages you to proceed with your plans or not, the players have the power to refuse all challenges from TuF. As I said before, you could be entirely disregarded by the TUT community which would almost make your efforts seem pointless.

In addition, can I suggest that those players who are currently members of other guilds and are considering TuF, stay with your current guilds. As I see it, we have a healthy and fair competition in turfwars, why ruin it by regrouping in another guild at the risk of folding others.

Finally, if TuF are interested in role play then have a look into D&D; it is the ultimate role playing experience.
As far as I was aware a guild couldn't refuse a challenge or have the rules been changed? Besides which, we don't know if we do still want to participate after the way things went.
The reason to 'risk it' is becuase we have a very strong guild with some skilled players.
As for the role playing aspect, we thought it would be fun because this it quite a unique game and we felt it fit in with the Thief theme.
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Old 25th Feb 2003, 10:28 AM   #19
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Darkbill:

I agree that TuF should be given room to become a regular guild, however, I'm a little burned that LR and Grank have to endure 2 pages of insults because they identified someone trying to sabatoge the turfwars.

Did we get an apology, or were people insulted as power hungry and abusive?

I'm not even sure we are getting honest answers from Chain when we are told the recruitment letter to CD contained an 'accident'. It looks to me that sabatoge was intended and when confronted with it the response from them looks like outright lies and namecalling.

Doesn't it stretch credibility a bit to have a guild based on spying (by their own admission) backed up by a recruitment letter to CD which is backed up by matching IPs all laughed off as innocent fun and accidents?

Read Chainsaws response carefully.

It is 90% attack on LR and Grank and 10% denial.

I don't see a change of course here yet. I don't see where TuF has done anything but play the role of the martyr and attack others as abusive in an attempt to have what they were doing (as the evidence clearly shows) covered in pity.

The bastard got busted and is attacking my friends and trying to play the community against the very people who've spent hours of their free time building and organizing the TurfWars in the first place.

I'm tired of trying to understand or have pity on these guys when their response to getting busted is to attack and deny the evidence.
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Old 25th Feb 2003, 10:34 AM   #20
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MadGerbil:

Thankyou for your intelligent and reasoned arguments. I'd answer your points but I'm not wasting my time, you've just become abusive now. If you refuse to play (and I don't see the other guilds having a problem) then you'll be kicked out of any tournament for refusing to play a match (or you'll just forfeit it) so that's your loss. If you're too ignorant to read my post and realise that we aren't cheaters then that is also your loss.. I'm not going to say anything more to you on this because you have just proved you aren't worth it (that's if you haven't got this thread closed for flaming so much).

No wonder I told you to fuck off in the first place....
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Old 25th Feb 2003, 10:36 AM   #21
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 Originally Posted by Mad_Gerbil:
I agree that TuF should be given room to become a regular guild, however, I'm a little burned that LR and Grank have to endure 2 pages of insults because they identified someone trying to sabatoge the turfwars.
I agree with you, and the attacks against LR and Grank upset me as well.
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Old 25th Feb 2003, 10:41 AM   #22
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Since this thread is going nowhere I'll take it somewhere else. :grin:

I heard a story today on the radio that some of MG's comments reminded me of. The comments were the evidence will show.

So there is this guy that the police have handcuffed in his apartment. The police forgot to frisk the man so they did not know he had a box cutter in his pocket. So while he's hands are handcuffed behind his back he manages to get out this box cutter. He then lunges at the police officers. There were two police men, one ran away while the other one shot the man 12 times. The jury found the police officers innocent of any wrongdoing.

What do you guys think about that? Is it ok for a police officer to shot a man 12 times while his hands are handcuffed behind his back even though he has a box cutter?
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Old 25th Feb 2003, 10:42 AM   #23
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Old 25th Feb 2003, 10:42 AM   #24
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 Originally Posted by DarkBill:
 Originally Posted by Mad_Gerbil:
I agree that TuF should be given room to become a regular guild, however, I'm a little burned that LR and Grank have to endure 2 pages of insults because they identified someone trying to sabatoge the turfwars.
I agree with you, and the attacks against LR and Grank upset me as well.
I'd like to stress that, if I didn't make it clear, I'm not attacking them for trying to make turfwars fair. I'm attacking their actions in not messaging our guild privately to express their concerns and allow us to come to some fair arrangemnt for all but instead leaping onto the stage in a blaze of righteous fire and glory and denouncing us.

Can you blame me for being upset at that? I hope not.
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Old 25th Feb 2003, 10:44 AM   #25
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 Originally Posted by [RLF:
Kore (V)acLoed]What do you guys think about that? Is it ok for a police officer to shot a man 12 times while his hands are handcuffed behind his back even though he has a box cutter?
My first reaction is that he made the decision to attack the police officers with a weapon. Even though he was handcuffed, that doesn't excuse the action, and an attack justifies a respose. I think that the response in this case -- 12 shots and I presume his death -- is excessive.
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Old 25th Feb 2003, 10:45 AM   #26
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Chainsaws: If you and the TuF members were interested ONLY in pure knowledge and the various strategies as you claim, then the TuF shouldn't have entered the TurfWars in the first place.

Anyways, I was expecting a more mature reply to the whole matter. I think that you are just angry because you won't have the same access to the guilds plans as you once did. Personally, I feel frustrated when it takes me hours and hours of playing and practising and figuring new ways to lay my traps just for someone to come and take the knowledge for his teammates (I am NOT refering to The Machine BTW it was completely hypothetical) . When I feel like sharing tips and strategies, I post strategy guides.

There is no honour in "spying" as you call it. Furthermore there is no honour in attacking the ones that busted you. Anyway nothing can change right now and I really think we should calm down. I hope to form a more "decent" guild now and I wish you luck.

P.S. We are still waiting for that list.
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Old 25th Feb 2003, 10:48 AM   #27
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 Originally Posted by Chainsaws:
Can you blame me for being upset at that? I hope not.
I don't blame you for being upset. Not sending a private notice to TuF and perhaps trying to work this out privately first may very well have been a mistake. I've said it before, though, and I'm sure I'll say it again: Our intent was never to come down with fire and lay waste to anything. I was fairly involved in the whole proceedings, and I feel that these attacks on Grank and LR are unjustified.
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Old 25th Feb 2003, 10:57 AM   #28
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 Originally Posted by The_Judge:
Chainsaws: If you and the TuF members were interested ONLY in pure knowledge and the various strategies as you claim, then the TuF shouldn't have entered the TurfWars in the first place.
A good point. A lot of members actually wanted to compete too and I suppose the two things just couldn't co-exist.
 Quote:
Anyways, I was expecting a more mature reply to the whole matter. I think that you are just angry because you won't have the same access to the guilds plans as you once did. Personally, I feel frustrated when it takes me hours and hours of playing and practising and figuring new ways to lay my traps just for someone to come and take the knowledge for his teammates (I am NOT refering to The Machine BTW it was completely hypothetical) . When I feel like sharing tips and strategies, I post strategy guides.
I'm not angry at that, to be honest we didn't learn much at all. Most of what we did learn was general gossip and that came more from us being so 'spread out'. Our members also shared tips that we had spent hours finding and learning in exchange for the things we learned "That's cool, let me show you this trick I know....". I can see why you would be upset though.
 Quote:
There is no honour in "spying" as you call it. Furthermore there is no honour in attacking the ones that busted you. Anyway nothing can change right now and I really think we should calm down. I hope to form a more "decent" guild now and I wish you luck.
I agree. It was a fun idea that couldn't work in this sort of community. However, I don't feel I have anyone to apologise to that I haven't done personally already. We tried to do something different and it didn't sell - end of story.
There was nothing dishonorable about our intentions in the first place and that is what I am upset about, a small minority seem to have judged us guilty when we haven't even had the opportunity to do anything wrong yet.
 Quote:
P.S. We are still waiting for that list.
I'm still waiting until some of my members have discussed their options with other guilds they are in, it would be unfair to name them before they have had a chance to do this. A full list will be posted asap though.
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Old 25th Feb 2003, 11:36 AM   #29
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 Originally Posted by Chainsaws:
"Thanks for trying to make yourself 'da b0mb' by posting it out publicy and showing how many secrets you can spy out from people.

While it's not wrong, if used for the right reasons, you just can't go around spying on people"
Well, the irony here, is you are saying you (LR and Grank)just can't go around spying on people, when infact that is exactly what TuF had planned. That is irony.

The other half of the irony, is that you would accuse LR and Grank of spying. Do you know what spying is? IMO LR and Grank were only investigating a possible security risk within all guilds, which could cause any guild that matched TuF to cry foul, even if TuF did not use info to win. They did not try to infiltrate your alliance, allias as some new player, to find this information out. That would be spying.

No, they did this through investigating.

On a side note, I completely agree with what Gerb's said within this post. And I completely agree with the actions of LR and Grank. Your attacks (yes, they were attacks) on them will do nothing to bring a forgiving light (excuse the pun) to TuF.

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Old 25th Feb 2003, 11:50 AM   #30
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Adrock: Right, I get it now, I didn't connect the two things. In my mind one is something done in a game for fun and one is looking at the technology side of things.

The points I raised about them spying are from the opinions of others I am aware of. A lot of people 'feel spied upon' by them, they may also feel that they were spied upon for us but that has ended now because we saw it was a mistake. A lot of people feel that they are being spied on when CTG are about because of 'investigation' that goes on all the time to 'supposedly' stop ragers. I can see how MG was seeing them the same because, well, they are. I just didn't see it right away and I apologise for my short-sightedness. I still feel though that while some people are praising LR and Grank over this they do not deserve it.

It may be necessary to look at logs etc. to identify cheaters, that is not what they were doing. I would not have any hard feeling towards them if they had voiced their concerns in a friendly manner, instead of laying down time limits and 'exposing' people.
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