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Old 7th Mar 2008, 02:59 PM   #1
Athelstone
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Suggestion: Torches

I was thinking the other day about the guards that carry torches around in Thief 3, and was wondering if there could be a place for torches in Thievery: Nightblade.

By torches, I mean these things:



Now, I understand that the purpose of flares is to provide a temporary light source for guards that, at the same time, provides an element of balance (so guards don't have a perpetual light source to always reveal thieves).

However, what about giving every guard a torch to carry around by default for just three minutes or so at the start of every round? The purpose of this would be to provide balance against thieves rushing the objectives, since guards will at least have the advantage of keeping a temporary light radius to themselves as they make their way towards the objectives. After the three minutes are up, the torch would go out and the guard would simply throw it to the ground or put it in his belt.

Last edited by Athelstone; 7th Mar 2008 at 03:31 PM.
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Old 7th Mar 2008, 03:16 PM   #2
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How about the ability for guards to be able to pick up certain torches out of wall sconces and walk with them. The caveat being that now there is no light in the area where the torch was. And if you don't return the torch then there will be no more relightable source there.

Perhaps prevent thieves from stealing them so its not too over balanced.. Unless a guard has removed it from its sconce. Once it has been removed, if a guard gets whacked.. then the torch can be thief frobbed and taken. Forcing guards to only take the torch when they are competent enough to handle it.

Once removed from the wall sconce, perhaps give it a lifespan of like 30 seconds before it snuffs. Have to return it to a wall sconce area to relight with flare... i dunno im just throwing more ideas out.
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Old 7th Mar 2008, 03:28 PM   #3
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 Originally Posted by -KewlAzMe-: ( link to post ) 
How about the ability for guards to be able to pick up certain torches out of wall sconces and walk with them. The caveat being that now there is no light in the area where the torch was. And if you don't return the torch then there will be no more relightable source there.
I think this is an interesting idea, but the thought of inexperienced guards losing all the wall sconce torches to the detriment of the whole team worries me.

I think it would be better perhaps if a guard could pull out an unlit torch from his belt, and put it to the wall sconce torch to light it. That way, the wall sconce stays exactly where it is. However, I think that guards should only be able to do this once per life, because it would defeat the purpose of flares if they could do it all the time.
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Old 7th Mar 2008, 03:36 PM   #4
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 Originally Posted by Athelstone: ( link to post ) 
I think it would be better perhaps if a guard could pull out an unlit torch from his belt, and put it to the wall sconce torch to light it.
ya thats true too.. maybe it can burn down slowly and burn their hands as they drop it and say "ssss AHH"
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Old 7th Mar 2008, 03:59 PM   #5
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i think it was a cool idea.. there are pretty many ideas that ppl are throwing out atm, its nice.. but even tho its cool, it might not be a good idea, and too many features could make the game less good. and i honestly dont think it will work. having torches for guards feels kinda broken, feels that it places guards to toptier while thieves at midtier~

i were gonna say, how about you start with more flares as a guard? but then again, 3 flares at start with the chest, and beeing able to open it from start is kinda good and balanced as it is already imo 8)
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Old 7th Mar 2008, 05:11 PM   #6
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Just aim to remove the burning torch sound when the torch is doused... Which may already be true, I haven't had the opportunity to try it.
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Old 7th Mar 2008, 06:58 PM   #7
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 Originally Posted by SpamSlayer: ( link to post ) 
To keep inexperienced guards from opening it there could be a key that only guards can get. The inexperienced wouldn't know to get the key. The key could be in a special object that looks like a box with a number combination that guards are given. (explains why thieves can't get) -- or if a thief will be allowed to get it, it will taken extra time to get the box open.
Interesting, though it seems like a lot of hassle when the same gameplay function could be fulfilled simply by giving guards their own unlit torches kept in a belt.

Lou's concerns about balance should definitely be taken into account. Though at the same time, the game needs to evolve - a variety of new gameplay features can contribute to this.

One possible way to balance torches would be to give thieves one or two more water arrows. Or to reduce the cost of water arrows by one or two gold pieces.
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Old 7th Mar 2008, 07:09 PM   #8
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The main issue I have with the idea is I don't see what problem it's supposed to solve. Would having a superflare at the beginning of the round really help combat rushing?
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Old 7th Mar 2008, 07:16 PM   #9
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I think it would certainly make most thieves more reluctant to sprint by guards at the start of the round.

Though, I think the principle function of torches would be to add a potentially new and interesting gameplay element that players would instantly recognize from the official Thief series.
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Old 7th Mar 2008, 07:24 PM   #10
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 Originally Posted by LoUie: ( link to post ) 
there are pretty many ideas that ppl are throwing out atm, its nice.. but even tho its cool, it might not be a good idea, and too many features could make the game less good.
Part of the idea process is Brainstorming. The first step is to throw out many ideas and then discuss them and see different points of view that some people may not have thought about... or see how one spin on an idea can be changed a different way. They don't even have to make sense at first, as maybe there is just one part that might be able to work in this game genre.

Lets not worry about what could or couldn't hurt the game until everyone has had a chance to comment.. its not LouieBlade, its NightBlade... and just cuz an idea is out there doesn't mean that it's going to be added. It would take a majority vote... or at least a vote by the devs to include something.. but its still worthwhile to throw ideas out there and discuss them.
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Old 9th Mar 2008, 09:31 PM   #11
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I'm fine with flares, its really a balance issue and forces guards to ration their resources.

Whats wrong with rushing anyhow? Its something a guard team has to learn to counter, through coordination and communication. Besides, its exciting and strategic - like how an opener in a chess game determines the next series of moves.

I can go for some AI elimination, a major objective, a specific key, a concentrated area of loot, or I can simply infiltrate and hide somewhere unexpected and make my move after things quiet down. As a guard, you have to predict what I will do or what I managed to achieve then adjust as necessary.

imo, the latest version of thievery suffers from over-zealous attempts to block rushing thieves - making version 1.4 superior.


On a separate issue: the 'torch-snuffer mod' should be part of normal night-blade - discuss. With the right settings, I certainly think it should.

Last edited by TafferBoy; 9th Mar 2008 at 09:43 PM.
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Old 11th Mar 2008, 02:48 PM   #12
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Whats wrong with rushing is that it causes annoyance amongst other Thieves when they silently try to infiltrate Gaurd territory while some headless chicken runs in with a handfull of gaurds behind him and kills the Stealthy thief.
I experienced this on a pub server not long ago, i was in the shadows, but the gaurd ran into me and noticed me this way.
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Old 13th Mar 2008, 09:33 PM   #13
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By 'rushing', I specifically mean going for the objectives at the beginning of the round. If that player got you killed then thats a mixture of bad-luck and poor play, but no fault of the game mechanics.

My point was that mappers/developers should not curb the ability of thieves to rush objectives because this can be countered by smart play. Therefore, I disagree with taking measures to restrict a player's freedom to engage in such tactics - such as giving guards 'bonus abilities' at the start of a round.

The opening 5 minutes of a competitive TUT match are the most crucial, the most strategic and set the tone for the rest of the round. My favorite part of the game .
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Old 14th Mar 2008, 05:24 AM   #14
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Rushing is a valid tactic, as far as I'm concerned the moment the round starts until the moment it ends Guards need to be on the lookout.

A good round on TUT could end in 30 seconds, or could be one that is won in the last few seconds. To be honest, I loved those times when the guard team would be all "WTF, how?" when the objective ding went off in the first 15 seconds because we'd all practised a separate rush route and it had been pulled off.

As Gladius says, intelligent organised guarding can counter a rush. And 1.2 -> 1.4 TUT was my personal fav.
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Old 16th Mar 2008, 02:38 AM   #15
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1.2 was good times, old campathon korman and grate-less aqua.
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Old 16th Mar 2008, 01:50 PM   #16
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 Originally Posted by -KewlAzMe-: ( link to post ) 

then the torch can be thief frobbed and taken. Forcing guards to only take the torch when they are competent enough to handle it.
Competent Guards? against a gang of thugs..erm DM thieves like thievery became at the end? LOL

 Originally Posted by -KewlAzMe-: ( link to post ) 
Part of the idea process is Brainstorming. The first step is to throw out many ideas and then discuss them and see different points of view that some people may not have thought about... or see how one spin on an idea can be changed a different way. They don't even have to make sense at first, as maybe there is just one part that might be able to work in this game genre.

Lets not worry about what could or couldn't hurt the game until everyone has had a chance to comment.. its not LouieBlade, its NightBlade... and just cuz an idea is out there doesn't mean that it's going to be added. It would take a majority vote... or at least a vote by the devs to include something.. but its still worthwhile to throw ideas out there and discuss them.
Just make an updated Thievery with better graphics for louie to play and lets get on with nightblade for the rest of us.
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Old 16th Mar 2008, 02:05 PM   #17
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 Originally Posted by Ghostly apparition: ( link to post ) 
Just make an updated Thievery with better graphics for louie to play and lets get on with nightblade for the rest of us.
Bingo!
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Old 30th May 2008, 11:02 PM   #18
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Ghostly Apparition and Louie just need to take this argument outside and get it over with. Now this thread is going to go on for 5 pages!

I love the torch idea, but I agree with Machine on the rushing. I think rushing is awesome. If thieves can bolt headlong into a guarded mansion while the guards are still putting their underwear on and bail with the loot, more power to them. I'm quite a bit more cautious by nature, but the very few rushes I have pulled off, I never felt like a lesser taffer for it, especially with one drop left

As far as game balance, I'm torn. I've been playing Thief 2 on expert and there are several missions where flares are mandatory equipment, (for a thief!). I can't recall any guards with torches though. I think that came in Deadly Shadows. In short, there's precedent for flares and torches in the thief series. Water arrows were the counter for both, in the Thief series and in Thievery.

I don't like KAM's idea of the combo lock on a torch though. It's overly complicated for what should be the simplest of guard equipment. If lords are going to put combo locks on torches outside, I would expect the actual valuables inside the mansion would all be behind a safe and an Ocean's Eleven style vault job would be required to get it out. Complete with Chinese contortionist.

If the combo lockbox for torches idea were instituted though, I agree, the thieves should be able to pick it.

What about using the supply box to supply torches instead? I haven't played NB online, but I don't recall a supply chest for guards.

Or should the guards be more modern and use bull's eye lanterns that would be much harder to dowse? The Mechanists made a submarine, after all...

And to further complicate the issue, has anyone considered the gas lamp? The Mechanists used them in the Kidnap mission of Thief 2. A torch-snuffer mod could be used on those, simulating they ran out of fuel.
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Old 30th May 2008, 11:09 PM   #19
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 Originally Posted by SPIDER: ( link to post ) 
Ghostly Apparition and Louie just need to take this argument outside and get it over with. Now this thread is going to go on for 5 pages!
Resurrection?! Ghostly and Louie have had tons of new arguments since this one.

 Originally Posted by SPIDER: ( link to post ) 
I don't like KAM's idea of the combo lock on a torch though. It's overly complicated for what should be the simplest of guard equipment. If lords are going to put combo locks on torches outside, I would expect the actual valuables inside the mansion would all be behind a safe and an Ocean's Eleven style vault job would be required to get it out. Complete with Chinese contortionist.

If the combo lockbox for torches idea were instituted though, I agree, the thieves should be able to pick it.
I really don't remember saying anything about a combo lock.. but the thread is too old for me to remember.

All the same, if I did offer the idea of a combo lock... I don't like that idea either.
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Old 30th May 2008, 11:22 PM   #20
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There is no guard footlocker/supply closet/etc at the moment, I really should add something for the moment as guards will run out of stuff over a match.

Regarding torches/flares - there are all sort of ideas I'ld like to try out in this space, such as each guard having a torch that us lit off of wall torches and lasts 10-20 seconds before needing to be relit. That might make things interesting as guards will need to stick close to the lit areas to be able to search the shadows. I'm leaving this alone for the moment though as there are some more important things to do.
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Old 31st May 2008, 01:49 AM   #21
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Torch > Flares

Quite a few parameters to play with here.

Wieldable Torch
Can be used in conjunction with sword.
Cannot be used in conjunction with crossbow.
Takes 3 seconds to light from an existing flame.
Lasts for a duration of 20 seconds (fuel-meter displayed).
Can re-light torches in 3 seconds.
Can burn moss off caltrops in 5 seconds (if moss & trops become part of the game).
Can be doused by water arrow, or by drawing crossbow.
Extinguishes when guard is KO'ed.

If you decide to go with torches, I wouldn't bother adding a supply chest/locker unless you want players to be able to replenish standard bolts.

You could just give guards more starting bolts and force them to ration them over the match. If match-time is dropped to <15 minutes that could work nicely.
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Old 31st May 2008, 04:40 AM   #22
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If it you could hold it like a weapon then you'd want to be allowed to clobber thieves with it too.

Maybe you could also make spiders scared of it so they back away when you move it in close proximity to them.

A club that lets you bash thieves and set thieves alight would be fun, counterbalanced of course with water arrows and the suggested lit duration limit.

Though I think 20 is too high, I'd say 10-15 would be better (yes in text that sounds like hardly any difference, but in-match that's a very large reduction).
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Old 31st May 2008, 06:22 AM   #23
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You'd first need to oil them somehow to set em ablaze.
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Old 31st May 2008, 07:24 AM   #24
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Realism! My greatest foe!

I could probably chuck some explanation against it like guards are carrying around plenty of oil, but they can't reapply it while the torch is lit.
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Old 31st May 2008, 07:46 AM   #25
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Not an issue then, what about oiling thieves then
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Old 31st May 2008, 07:58 AM   #26
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That would waste all your oil though. Lord Belford would be most displeased.
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Old 31st May 2008, 08:59 AM   #27
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Can we smash thieves with our torch, setting them ablaze?
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Old 31st May 2008, 09:16 AM   #28
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Its like asking if we can set em ablaze with flares
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Old 31st May 2008, 12:05 PM   #29
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 Originally Posted by FatRatHead: ( link to post ) 
Its like asking if we can set em ablaze with flares
Well.. try it.. go light a flare and put it to your skin... then try it with a torch..

Lemme know how that works out for you.
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Old 31st May 2008, 01:20 PM   #30
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Well I'd been hit by a flaming torch and didn't catch on fire...
And you should count in that thieves often are wet and their missions (in Tut and DE) usually contained some swimming or water.
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