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Old 30th May 2004, 09:57 AM   #1
[theDAN]
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Tweaking the ammunition system

As always, everything in-game impresses me; no complaints at all. With regards weapons, I've got three suggestions:

1) Keep partially empty mags for use later

2) Introduce per-shell loading for shotguns

3) Increase standard shotgun to a more sensible 6-7 shell capacity

Number 1 means reloading during 'quiet' time doesn't lose you ammunition, and you end up swapping between mags with 10-20% remaining; per-shell on the shotguns does the same thing, but allows you to 'top up', and the three round shotgun is both useless and wildly unrealistic. At 6-7 rounds, the special shotgun is still better but 80% and has grenades. Any other ammo related ideas? So far, only the 'loadout' system needs improvement, everything else is 100%
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Old 30th May 2004, 11:52 AM   #2
Gretik
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I am not too keen on the idea, i like the shotguns the way they are now really... The normal shotgun is a really powerful back up weapon but if you want to take a proper shotgun its the automatic one.

Possibly the shell by shell reloading might be cool, but I really haven't had trouble using it as is (Except for gibbing my medics alot... Sorry).

I really don't like the idea of keeping partial mags, and merging mags is a little ridiculous. I wouldnt want to think i had 5 full clips when i really have 2 full and 3 with about 20 in...
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Old 30th May 2004, 12:02 PM   #3
JRock
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 Originally Posted by Gretik:
I really don't like the idea of keeping partial mags, and merging mags is a little ridiculous.
I wouldnt want to think i had 5 full clips when i really have 2 full and 3 with about 20 in...
Those two sentences seemingly contradict themselves.

If you don't want it to show 5 clips when you really only have 2 full ones and 3 partials, wouldn't you then rather have it show 3 full clips by merging the 3 partials (which currently magically disappear) into 1 or 2 full clips (depending on how much are in the partials)?

Merging mags is less ridiculous than ammunition magically disappearing when you reload, and less confusing than having partial clips left over, which as you said would be mistaken for more full ones.

Again though, like Friendly Fire, this is an issue best solved by having an Option in the setup screen where the host sets difficulty level so it can be either the current way where ammo disappears or a merge method, just like the ability to enable or disable Friendly Fire could be.
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Old 30th May 2004, 12:23 PM   #4
Mordegar
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I really like the Idea to improve the standart Shotgun.

Give it a 5-7 Shot Mag or raise the ammount of magazines to 14.

Most players take the Rifle because the standart Shottie runs too fast out of ammo, and running out of ammo before the half map is passed is just deadly.

Rifle has much more Ammo compared to the Shotgun and both are standart Weapons aviable for every class.

When i play Medic, i like to take an Shotgun but the low ammount of ammo shocks me off to take an Rifle.
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Old 30th May 2004, 01:46 PM   #5
TafferBoy
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I dunno about this 'partial' magizine stuff, but It would be good if you could load your shotgun shell by shell so there is no wasted ammo, seeing as shotguns don't normally have clips as far as i'm aware.

I wouldn't know if the normally shotgun is un-powered, because I never use it. I much prefer the rifle, or the rifle + flashlight combo.
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Old 30th May 2004, 03:32 PM   #6
BlackNova
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 Originally Posted by TafferBoy:
I dunno about this 'partial' magizine stuff, but It would be good if you could load your shotgun shell by shell so there is no wasted ammo, seeing as shotguns don't normally have clips as far as i'm aware.

I wouldn't know if the normally shotgun is un-powered, because I never use it. I much prefer the rifle, or the rifle + flashlight combo.
Normal shotgun has a sucky clipsize (3 shots?!?!). Is useful as a last resort (better than the pistols), but would not recommend it for combat usage. The Assault shotgun is an entirely different ballgame, that thing in the computers hands is *evil*, I dunno if it's just me, but the AI seems to make the thing fire even faster than usual, watching Sarge walk round with what looks like a jackhammer is a terrifying sight.

Rifle is definitely the default weapon of choice, and strangely 5 clips of that will more or less last you the entire mission, given the ammopack stores a further 5 on top to split between the marines you get plenty of spare firepower to work with. Still think the autogun needs to be ramped to 300 rd capacity, just to match it up with the rifles (100 rds in the clip + 5 clips = 600 rds, the autogun comes up 100rds light).

Just finished mission 2, and yes, I am now of the opinion that rescuable / unlockable extra marines would be the icing on a superb cake. A few extra tinker toys for high level characters, more levels, and we're pretty much on a perfect setup.

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Old 30th May 2004, 03:42 PM   #7
JRock
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 Originally Posted by BlackNova:
the AI seems to make the thing fire even faster than usual, watching Sarge walk round with what looks like a jackhammer is a terrifying sight.

Mmmm, jackhammer...
http://world.guns.ru/shotgun/sh10-e.htm
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Old 30th May 2004, 06:56 PM   #8
[theDAN]
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I argue that the normal shotgun is far, far worse than the pistol. On normal, two pistol shots kill an alien, and you've got 12 per clip and 5 spare. Far better than this three shell nonsense. AND taking the shotgun replaces something useful like the ammo bag etc. Complete waste. AND they don't even share ammo. UGH.

And partials are waaaaay better than having to empty your mags; its totally ridiculous that you just drop the mags. Real soldiers keep their ammo. If you're worried, empty your mags, have them noted on the display separately; but over 6 mags, I'll usually waste 100 rnds just because I don't empty them. So overall I'd rather have the extra mag.
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Old 30th May 2004, 08:22 PM   #9
Omega
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I didn't like the normal shotty at first either. But now I quite like it. Makes you think before you shoot and be extra carefull with your shots.
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Old 30th May 2004, 08:43 PM   #10
Gretik
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 Originally Posted by JRock:
Those two sentences seemingly contradict themselves.

If you don't want it to show 5 clips when you really only have 2 full ones and 3 partials, wouldn't you then rather have it show 3 full clips by merging the 3 partials (which currently magically disappear) into 1 or 2 full clips (depending on how much are in the partials)?
No it doesn't contradict, I wouldn't want to be mislead by my ammo count and i find the idea of merging magazines mid mission silly, hence I am glad you just discard half used magazines at the moment.

In all honestly, how long does it take to unload and load a magazine...
I mean put bullet after bullet into a magazine, which is what you'd have to do with partials to merge them...
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Old 31st May 2004, 01:52 AM   #11
[theDAN]
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 Originally Posted by Gretik:
No it doesn't contradict, I wouldn't want to be mislead by my ammo count and i find the idea of merging magazines mid mission silly, hence I am glad you just discard half used magazines at the moment.

In all honestly, how long does it take to unload and load a magazine...
I mean put bullet after bullet into a magazine, which is what you'd have to do with partials to merge them...

Merging magazines is obviously quite silly. I'm not sure what you mean by being 'misled'.. having a mag with 25 is far better than no mags. I assume you mean when you run out you request more; so displaying fresh mags/used mags + ammo bag mags would fix that for you. I don't use the rifles much anyhoo, so I've never been through all 6 magazines.

The normal shotgun isn't bad, its just stupid that it's got three shells. What is it, a K-mart shotgun? Reloading shotguns in a 'magazine' sense is just lame; your little dude is hardly jacking out all the shells then putting new ones in.

Does anyone know why the better shotgun is a 'pneumatically assisted' pump, and not a semi auto? I mean, really...
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Old 31st May 2004, 02:45 AM   #12
Hedge-o-Matic
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Actually, I think that the marines should indeed have per-clip ammo, and always load the fullest clip they have. That way, when you are down to 74 ammo, and try to reload, and it just blinks the 74 at you, you know that that's the best clip you've got. After you're down to 52, say, and try again, and only manage to find a clip with 57 ammo, you'll still be stressed, but not be throwing away ammo.
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Old 31st May 2004, 02:54 AM   #13
SpiderJerusalem
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I think that this is stressing a little too hard about a fast-paced shooter. If you don't want to lose the extra bullets, don't reload every time you press the fire key. This isn't Counterstrike.
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Old 31st May 2004, 02:56 AM   #14
[theDAN]
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Thats a pretty flash idea; I was also thinking when a mag is 'discarded' that it should be dropped in-game, so if you want you can pick it up again for use later, in a system like yours. Then people who only want full mags don't have to worry. But, like the JRock guy keeps saying, it should just be an option, so people can pick how they want to play.
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Old 31st May 2004, 02:57 AM   #15
[theDAN]
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 Originally Posted by SpiderJerusalem:
This isn't Counterstrike.

Amen!

And, no need to use dirty words!
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Old 31st May 2004, 07:29 AM   #16
Gretik
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 Originally Posted by [theDAN]:
Merging magazines is obviously quite silly. I'm not sure what you mean by being 'misled'.. having a mag with 25 is far better than no mags.
Not really for me, if I have mag that has 25, and i think I have more ammunition than I do I may go on into a situation where a full clip would see me by, but a partial would go click halfway through and i would be eviscerated.

Possibly if partials were kept in a seperate count, like 3 + 5 + 2, and better yet colour coded, white for full, blue for half and red for you just don't want to go there, in this case the 2 would be coloured for the amount of ammo in the next clip, and then change when that was used.
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Old 31st May 2004, 06:53 PM   #17
[theDAN]
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I suggested something like this earlier; however, just having partials dropping in-game and able to be picked up again lets hoarders like me keep them (the pickup would need an indicator of how much ammo remains) and people who want full mags. As you say, they've already got x + y for ammo bags, introducing another for partials would lt everyone know when they were in the scary world of half-empties.
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Old 31st May 2004, 07:49 PM   #18
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Per shell loading for the basic shotgun makes all kinds of sense. Some issues fitting this into the ammo system we have.. but i like it.

As for clips, i think there's a great skill in knowing when to reload. Low ammo fights are scary, but necessary if you want to get the most from your weapon. I'd like to see this tension and need for judgement, rather than being more forgiving with reloads
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Old 31st May 2004, 07:57 PM   #19
[theDAN]
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 Originally Posted by DusKer:
Per shell loading for the basic shotgun makes all kinds of sense. Some issues fitting this into the ammo system we have.. but i like it.
If its workable, thats excellent! Is there a design reason for the regular shotgun being only three shells? Of course, the relative ammo of the two shotguns would be solved by per-shell reloading and giving them both the same number of shells. Actually, why do they use different ammo, is this just because of the different clip sizes?

 Originally Posted by DusKer:
As for clips, i think there's a great skill in knowing when to reload. Low ammo fights are scary, but necessary if you want to get the most from your weapon. I'd like to see this tension and need for judgement, rather than being more forgiving with reloads
I agree, and I don't usually run out of ammo anyway (well, maybe with the pistols). But in a dangerous situation like Alien Swarm, I think dropping mags, and not scrounging for them later, isn't so good. In INF when I'm down to partially-full mags, that adds tension, because I don't know how much the NEXT one will have left... But I can see that it's a taste/style thing, and it hardly ruins the game
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Old 1st Jun 2004, 01:51 AM   #20
Xepo
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I really like the dropping used clips idea. It's an awesome idea. If you accidently reload too early (deadly for an autogunner), you can just pick it back up. Anyone who feels like managing can grab the clips that others drop. Anyone who doesn't can leave them on the ground. I think the limiting factor should be the number of clips you have total though. Like, if you can only carry around 1 autogun clip, you shouldn't be able to have more than that, even if that 1 is half empty.

Though, that brings up the point...let's say your current clip is mostly full, clip you have in inventory is mostly empty, and you find a new full clip. What happens? We'll need a way to discard the clips you're holding, or something like that. Maybe only discard the old if it has less ammo than the one you're trying to pick up.
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Old 1st Jun 2004, 02:39 AM   #21
[theDAN]
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You're right; it'd need some 'marine intelligence' to automatically discard your 'most empty' magazine if you pick up another one. But its also increasing the use of the ammo pack; ammo pack guys can maintain their supply by retrieving other clips, keeping the team going in those tight spots.
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