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Old 26th Mar 2012, 06:40 AM   #1
WTaFa
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The maps that worked so well for years have probably finally been broken

 Originally Posted by The Dragon: ( link to post ) 
... I think the maps that worked so well for years have probably finally been broken - the overall gameplay is just way higher than it once was, and everyone knows the same tricks. ...
What features could have general unbreakable by high level gameplay TuT map?
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Old 26th Mar 2012, 05:54 PM   #2
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 Originally Posted by WTaFa: ( link to post ) 
What features could have general unbreakable by high level gameplay TuT map?
Heh... This is problem of finding wining strategy for map... This is more likely problem of lack of new maps not well known to the player, maps whose winning strategy have to be found yet...

Anyway this is problem with the lack of mappers for mod and narrow player base as well...
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Old 27th Mar 2012, 02:43 AM   #3
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I'm not totally sure what Dragon meant by that comment, but definitely towards and after 1.6 the guarding level was at an all-time high and it was far harder to be a thief. It was difficult to find respite as a thief because guards could hear everything and you basically needed to pull off a decent rush to have a solid chance at victory. The promod changes address much of what became seriously unbalanced in Thievery, outside of glaring map problems like the aquatone lift.

Tight quarter maps like bourg will never be balanced with more than 3 guards now, though. Back in the day it wasn't unheard of for thieves to win against 4+ guards but that was due to a low standard; poor positioning and little teamwork/communication. Now it takes an exceptional thief to even be in the running.
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Old 27th Mar 2012, 04:57 AM   #4
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I know, 'levelwhoring' we used to call it and Dragon used to lead it in TuF - basically joining a private server as a thief and a guard, finding all the 'sploits and hiding spots you could to gain an upperhand in online play. With players using the thief and the guard to communicate what the guard could/couldn't see/hear made it all the more useful.

Many of the hiding spots and 'sploits found were not overly useful in practice, some were just to hard to get to, but some of those spolits won TuF some heated clan matches.

Shug is right though, as time went on in TuT guarding standards just became better. Map bugs were fixed. The game changed.
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Old 27th Mar 2012, 05:07 AM   #5
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 Originally Posted by FixXxeR: ( link to post ) 
as time went on in TuT guarding standards just became better. Map bugs were fixed. The game changed.
in a better way it seems. I heard people saying, TuT in earlier versions (before 1.4 or something), was all about DM only.

Last edited by NeuroFunkeR; 27th Mar 2012 at 05:23 AM.
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Old 27th Mar 2012, 05:18 AM   #6
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Perspective NeuroFunk. I can probably speak for a few members of this community and reminisce of a 'golden age' of Thievery - ask the same members what they think of the game now and you'll get a positively negative answer. You might think this mod is fantastic now, it was once even better than it is now which to me and many others is just a great memory.

The players made Thievery back then, the clans, the scandals, the guild wars - There isn't any of this now, at least no visible movement on BlackCat forums.
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Old 27th Mar 2012, 05:27 AM   #7
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 Originally Posted by FixXxeR: ( link to post ) 
Perspective NeuroFunk. I can probably speak for a few members of this community and reminisce of a 'golden age' of Thievery - ask the same members what they think of the game now and you'll get a positively negative answer. You might think this mod is fantastic now, it was once even better than it is now which to me and many others is just a great memory.

The players made Thievery back then, the clans, the scandals, the guild wars - There isn't any of this now, at least no visible movement on BlackCat forums.
depends on what are we talking about.

If we look at popularity, community, players, guilds etc. There is no doubt, it was lot better many years earlier. But if we are talking about gameplay mechanics? Bug fixes, glitches etc. i think tut 1.6 wins here.
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Old 27th Mar 2012, 05:29 AM   #8
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I'm talking about 1.3 > 1.4, only made cameo appearances after that
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Old 27th Mar 2012, 06:59 AM   #9
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The "DM scourge" was over before I started playing regularly. Prior to 1.3 when the strafe speed was as fast as running forward, circlestrafing guards would have been a walk in the park.

I have very fond memories of 1.4, especially some of the map elements that were changed for the worse later (korman crypt doors, nost roof exit, etc) but it still had some very strong exploits like the machine gun xbow and the para crouch sliding. I think Dragon invented the silent hopping as thief, which was brilliant.
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Old 27th Mar 2012, 07:03 AM   #10
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well, for impulse, or whatever his nick was, circlestrafing guards was like a walk in the park in 1.5 and 1.6. I remember how guards were cursing, when he appeared after long absence, and started to circlestrafe everyone out lol.
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Old 27th Mar 2012, 07:13 AM   #11
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The benefit of a regular 500+ ping from what I remember with Impulse.

Dragon invented quite a few tricks, to say he was passionate about TuT back in the day is an understatement. SeEManN was one of the best DM'ers I've seen play this game but he did curb it in later versions but this was mainly due to Brody server rules changing from memory. I think a few other servers changed as well, Crackazz ceased their server around this period somewhere.

I'll always remember running around the walls on TH-Nostalgia in order to escape at the end of a round and grabbing the gem through the safe door on TH-Korman. Great games.
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Old 27th Mar 2012, 07:16 AM   #12
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well, also good old chest picking at th-skeletons was also quite overused by players lately.
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Old 27th Mar 2012, 11:27 AM   #13
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 Originally Posted by mcfarrel: ( link to post ) 
...Anyway this is problem with the lack of mappers for mod...
What do you mean?
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Old 27th Mar 2012, 12:42 PM   #14
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 Originally Posted by WTaFa: ( link to post ) 
What do you mean?
This is simple. How many people did map(s) for Thievery mod? If there are just few maps, besides the other cool (or so told cool) features of the game or mod, the people play if the game is entertaining and funny for them (somehow). However when playing on just few maps these maps became boring for player. Because players know these maps well nothing new, nothing exciting.

The main problem is (I ignore people playing the mod for its specific features, because there are people still who appreciate features of TUT these day) most of the players are just in desperate search for something cool. Lets say some excitement... But to be honest. What could be offered here?

Just to clear what I mean. I do not insult the creator (mod developers and any other content creators as well), I just want to point out the situation. The Thievery have some interesting features in it. But it lacks the "marketing". This is problem, because people (I mean majority of people) do not want something good and useful, but something cool and new.

I suppose the Thievery might still have things to offer, but it depends on new breed of people making content and new breed of people playing.
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Old 27th Mar 2012, 01:49 PM   #15
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Most people, and I say most, there may be a few out there, that might be interested in Thievery. Mainly older players that have experienced more than just the *run and gun* that is out there right now.
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Old 27th Mar 2012, 03:10 PM   #16
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 Originally Posted by mcfarrel: ( link to post ) 
people (I mean majority of people) do not want something good and useful, but something cool and new.
So true. Hits the nail on the head. Sadly, this applies to all BCG games. But if new content can't fix it, nothing can.

Maybe if a handful of modernised/fixed custom maps came packaged in an official update, with maybe a surplus feature or two to spice it up, there'd be a way. Cool and new, there you have it.
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Old 27th Mar 2012, 03:57 PM   #17
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 Originally Posted by mcfarrel: ( link to post ) 
This is simple. How many people did map(s) for Thievery mod? If there are just few maps, besides the other cool (or so told cool) features of the game or mod, the people play if the game is entertaining and funny for them (somehow). However when playing on just few maps these maps became boring for player. Because players know these maps well nothing new, nothing exciting.
yeah, allways biggest problem, gamers are lazy, they like to learn a handfull of maps, and just keep repeating them to death, there are a few good balanced maps that are custom but people never vote them. and after ages of playing the same map they decide there bored, try and vote for somthing new, but same problem, everyone else just wants the standard 4/5 maps again. and if you have played the game that long, most things do become very predicatble. especialy if you know all the players and playstyles.

 Originally Posted by mcfarrel: ( link to post ) 
The main problem is (I ignore people playing the mod for its specific features, because there are people still who appreciate features of TUT these day) most of the players are just in desperate search for something cool. Lets say some excitement... But to be honest. What could be offered here?

I suppose the Thievery might still have things to offer, but it depends on new breed of people making content and new breed of people playing.
yeah thats what iv said for awhile, a company makes the game, the community keeps it going. i play fan made gametypes for ut2004 and they are mainly fan made maps too. all the mutators and mods that are used are fan made. the only thing thats offical is the core game files. if thievery was to pick up, it needed a whole new addon a few years ago, not just a fix patch, their nice but dont really do much in expanding the game and keeping interest. thievery never really had a big enough modding fan base to keep things interesting, and the ones that tried like kam/chiefs extra potions etc never really got accepted due to it messing up loadouts on different servers
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Old 27th Mar 2012, 04:26 PM   #18
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I remember back in the old days when map-vote wasn't in use when next map was a challenge but not a present.
Now it's not only about repeating known maps but choosing easier map to play as thief or guard. Especially by pr0s - poor newbies owned again.
Map-vote should be removed from ALL servers and that's it.
Map-vote had good time when we had good, humble and clever players but now we haven't so it's right time to send it to the hell.
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Old 27th Mar 2012, 06:24 PM   #19
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 Originally Posted by Keggie: ( link to post ) 
...there are a few good balanced maps that are custom...
which maps do you mean, Keggie?
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Old 28th Mar 2012, 03:33 AM   #20
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Archery, LakeShore Pub, Hammerite Monastery are 3 decent maps, not perfect i'll grant ya but for public play there pretty good. not just custom maps tho really, Soul's Harbor is prob one of my fav maps that never gets voted, little tricky for thieves somtimes but certainly balanced enough.
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Old 28th Mar 2012, 12:47 PM   #21
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I'm curious what gameplay ratings could have these still not so popular custom maps (maybe I missed some positions?):
TH-AncientRuins
TH-Apache71
TH-Apprenticev2
Th-Archery
TH-Bafford2
TH-Breandor
TH-Common_Currency
TH-DanteBeta
TH-District2
TH-Hanse
TH-Kingsofthedesert_Finalv2
TH-LakeShorePub30
TH-Library1
TH-LordBeckB2
TH-Mausoleumt4b_01
TH-Monastery76
TH-Rectory
TH-Semaiyo_FVB03
TH-Sheriff_FVB10
TH-SoulsHarbor
Additional notes about why playbility of certain map has certain rating could be interesting to know too.

 Originally Posted by Keggie: ( link to post ) 
Archery, LakeShore Pub, Hammerite Monastery are 3 decent maps, not perfect i'll grant ya but for public play there pretty good. not just custom maps tho really, Soul's Harbor is prob one of my fav maps that never gets voted, little tricky for thieves somtimes but certainly balanced enough.
For what numbers of players these maps are best balanced?
I remeber that on LakeShore with 4 (i mean thieves+guards) guard team hasn't good chanses to win for example. There two much rush routes for smart thieves.
I agreed that LakeShore, Archery and Souls Harbour have nice gameplay dinamics. I'm not sure about Hammerite Monastery. Can you give for Monastery best thieves/guards numbers for nice TuT party: 3vs3 or maybe 3vs4, how do you think?
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Old 28th Mar 2012, 01:14 PM   #22
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TH-AncientRuins =.. nice desgin and style.. but i just never liked it, rather large and spread out, not much in the way of chases
TH-Apache71 = spiders! screw that too hard to thief iirc
TH-Apprenticev2 = To Big
Th-Archery = rather large and often dmed
TH-Bafford2 = camped and dmed
TH-Breandor = To Big
TH-Common_Currency = Unfinished
TH-DanteBeta = too large, tbh tho i never learnt that one, got lost lots
TH-District2 - too dark, needs ambiant lighting and rather too large
TH-Hanse = fine for 1v1, anything more and its crap
TH-Kingsofthedesert_Finalv2 - never played proper version, brody only had the broken light one on the server for years
TH-LakeShorePub30 - perfect!! ok its not, to easy to rush, to easy to dm, fun map to ghost tho.
TH-Library1 = Unfinished
TH-LordBeckB2 = nice well made map, iirc to much loot needed
TH-Mausoleumt4b_01 =..never played tbh not even heard of it
TH-Monastery76 = dmed and camped
TH-Rectory = restricted equipment always anoys people
TH-Semaiyo_FVB03 = to small and loot placement not great
TH-Sheriff_FVB10 = too bright inside iirc, normaly just gets dmed
TH-SoulsHarbor = no dm = no fun so most wont vote it

 Quote:
For what numbers of players these maps are best balanced? I remeber that on LakeShore with 4 (i mean thieves+guards) guard team hasn't good chanses to win for example. There two much rush routes for smart thieves.
I agreed that LakeShore, Archery and Souls Harbour have nice gameplay dinamics. I'm not sure about Hammerite Monastery. Can you give for Monastery best thieves/guards numbers for nice TuT party: 3vs3 or maybe 3vs4, how do you think?
lakeshore pub 2v3 is best imo is a more thief favored map
Archery 3v4 for me, can swing either way depending on players
Monastery 2v3, normaly Camped and DMed, more thief favored map imo

there my opinions of course, im sure others would disagree, the best and closest matches i even played were when thieves had 1 less player.
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Old 28th Mar 2012, 04:04 PM   #23
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TH-AncientRuins, TH-Apache71, TH-Apprenticev2, TH-Breandor, TH-DanteBeta, TH-District2, TH-Hanse, TH-LakeShorePub30, TH-Rectory, TH-Semaiyo_FVB03 - Keggie, have you any ideas about why authors of these maps spent so much own time and efforts on their projects and as result I hear today from you that these maps aren't true thievery multiplayer maps (too large or too small etc)?

Th-Archery
TH-Bafford2
TH-Monastery76
TH-Sheriff_FVB10
To what degree could be dmed these maps? How much AI will be killed if map will be protected by good guard team?

TH-Common_Currency, TH-Library1 - not finished. Due what main issues these maps have unfinished status?

TH-LordBeckB2 - what amount of thieves/guards would be best for nice party on it?

TH-Mausoleumt4b_01 - so try to check it then and give your expert opinion man
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Old 28th Mar 2012, 05:09 PM   #24
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Bandit has a point there with that map vote. Whenever I felt like joining a game of Thievery (which is really a rare case lately) we only played the same boring maps over and over. Gerome, Grange, Highway Inn, Flats...you named it. From the typically played maps I could only somewhat stand Asylum and Breakout.

I actually also remember that back in the days we had a bigger variety of maps to play and they actually were played not voted off, even if they didn't have balance or were utterly silly. I miss Airship so much and I liked Lord Beck, District wasn't that bad either.

I miss Hanse too :p "Dat toilet" - some ppl will get the hint

PS. Souls Harbor - I hate that map - gives me mini heart attacks xD
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Old 28th Mar 2012, 05:55 PM   #25
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 Originally Posted by WTaFa: ( link to post ) 
TH-AncientRuins, TH-Apache71, TH-Apprenticev2, TH-Breandor, TH-DanteBeta, TH-District2, TH-Hanse, TH-LakeShorePub30, TH-Rectory, TH-Semaiyo_FVB03 - Keggie, have you any ideas about why authors of these maps spent so much own time and efforts on their projects and as result I hear today from you that these maps aren't true thievery multiplayer maps (too large or too small etc)?
i didnt say they wernt true thievery multiplayer maps, i was pointing out whats wrong with them and why some arnt played. maps and mods are never 100% finished, i could happily point out several things wrong and things i would change about most the offical maps. imo thievery should be for around 6 players, 2v3 and 3v4, maps that literaly need more humans to man the different areas tend to be just too big. you also have to look at big maps at the final section of the game, picture 1 thief vs 5 human guards, and he needs 2000 +loot and an objective item.. its too much, its not impossible, but for an average thief he stands very little chance. even worse on smaller maps, iv seen 1v5 on grange, gl with that one..

maps need to be simple and relatively easy to learn, most the well played maps are maps you can learn in 2/3 games of it. iv played some maps many times and still get lost. should point out LakeShorePub30 is in the above list, its one of my fav maps, i spent alot of time voting that to have people vote asylum again, a map i dont even consider to be worth playing. Hanse is a map i made/editedtogether, its made for 1v1, anything more is too much. most thievery custom maps are very nicely made and alot of thought went into them, but they dont have the gameplay mechanies of the type of map thieves like to play. a game should be no longer then 20 mins, and a large map, 80% of the time, you wont see or hear a thing. the best thievery maps are maps that are simple to learn from the outside away from danger, and have around 3 key loot locations. on large maps your spread out to far as loot is scatered everywhere, needs to be in a few key places, and have a few different ways of getting there. reason why i consider LakeShorePub to be a good map is because theres 3 key areas, 1 guard takes each. gerome has 3 key areas, nostaliga has 3 key areas, theatre has 3 key areas, flats has.. around 4 key areas, grange has 4 key areas.. now lets move to the bigger maps, brendor has 2 Main areas + 5/6 key areas + extras, Apprentice has 2 key areas, and loads of extras iirc, but the point is, there isnt enough guards to watch all the areas, so it normaly comes down to waiting for a long time doing nothing for a guard = no fun.

Take gerome or grange, you will find a thief within 2 mins, you will chase off a thief, he will escape, 2/3 mins later, you will find him again, its much more consistant action. Semaiyo is a nice map, but it just comes down to guarding 1 room really and waiting.. theres no real thought for the thief to try different aproches like other maps. its fun for a 1v1 but anything more is a nono


 Originally Posted by WTaFa: ( link to post ) 
Th-Archery
TH-Bafford2
TH-Monastery76
TH-Sheriff_FVB10
To what degree could be dmed these maps? How much AI will be killed if map will be protected by good guard team?
bafford comes down to guards camping 2 rooms, just blocking the door ways, if you dont dm, you wont get past. monastery most people dont know, so alot will DM, the prime camping areas is very good to kill the campers, and even easier to escape then gerome roofs. the rest of the map is very dark in places and guards have to run through dark areas just to get to other places at points. archery is another thats dmed because players dont know it, and theres a handy few windows to do it from. the two key objective spots and easy to DM at also which doesnt help much. archer is one of those maps thats very fun to ghost and quite possible too with ease but the opitunity to DM is great and people will take it over thieving. Sheriff prob comes down to the same thing, very dark outside, easy to dm from, very bright inside, easier to dm from outside in then running through bright hallways with little escape routes.

 Originally Posted by WTaFa: ( link to post ) 
TH-Common_Currency, TH-Library1 - not finished. Due what main issues these maps have unfinished status?
iirc Common_Currency is the one with find the scroll, huge map that comes down to defending 1 small little area, theres no loot, and no exit? hmm might be an exit actualy, just recall it been unfinished.

Library is a possible good 1v1, but AI nodes are terrible, they allways just get stuck out the front, far to dark inside and loot placement could do with tweaking, does have good potential for a 1v1 tho, id spread the loot out alot more, get rid of the main objective book, and some more lighting inside. atm its safer and darker inside then it is out.

 Originally Posted by WTaFa: ( link to post ) 
TH-LordBeckB2 - what amount of thieves/guards would be best for nice party on it?
main problem with this one is DM, ko 1 guard outside, and EVERY guard on the map hears it and rushes outside. not alot you can do about that tho tbh. another problem is the loot needed, 2000 is too much, its about right with the loot on the map, imo loot needed should be about half of the total on the map. but the map is rather small and theres alot of loot to pickup. id reduce the amout of loot on the map also the loot required. say need 1000, total 2200ish. is a very lovely made map i should point out, lot of work went into that one and it certainly shows

 Originally Posted by WTaFa: ( link to post ) 
TH-Mausoleumt4b_01 - so try to check it then and give your expert opinion man
if its not on brody customs iv never played it, far to lazy to go vote it

again, there my opinions. im sure others would disagree. it mainly comes down to who you play with and how they play tho
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Old 28th Mar 2012, 06:13 PM   #26
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 Originally Posted by Vigilant: ( link to post ) 
I miss Hanse too :p "Dat toilet" - some ppl will get the hint

have a thing for toilets do you? well whatever floats ya boat i guess strange gurl
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Old 28th Mar 2012, 08:11 PM   #27
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Bandit nailed it on the mapvote, although I think to have it work properly you really do need to cull a lot of the weaker customs. Maps like Spider, Aquatone, Breakout and Korman are never played anymore, even though there's really nothing wrong with them.

But with maps like Kingsofthedesert, Breandor, Archery - they're huge, sprawling levels that turn into ridiculous chokes once you get inside a building. It's simply impossible to play them without culling the guard population and people tend to get frustrated and screw around, which isn't good for keeping players on the server.

I'd be willing to remove mapvote once we have a good selection of maps. Who could forget the glorious * beside one's name and the demands for people to click ready so we could get to the next map?
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Old 29th Mar 2012, 05:42 AM   #28
NeuroFunkeR
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toilet, with FRH's picture girl-a like look? How can you forget that.
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Old 30th Mar 2012, 04:06 AM   #29
]>CoD<[Chief
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 Quote:
. Who could forget the glorious * beside one's name and the demands for people to click ready so we could get to the next map?
Of course maybe I'm thinking of other games, but didn't it time out after a majority of players had clicked.

Mind you, I also remember such things as "oh no! not aquatone - such a guard map-callvote please!" when we got to a new map (not me though, I enjoyed thieving aquatone ).
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Old 31st Mar 2012, 03:30 AM   #30
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 Originally Posted by Keggie: ( link to post ) 
...i could happily point out several things wrong and things i would change about most the offical maps...
Could you write down your thoughts about this? Probably I've heard about tough places in official maps but I have no idea what could be done with all of them.
 Originally Posted by Keggie: ( link to post ) 
...you also have to look at big maps at the final section of the game, picture 1 thief vs 5 human guards, and he needs 2000 +loot and an objective item...
But we have official Flats and Mensh which both rather large. Am I right that loot on Apprenticev2, Breandor, DanteBeta, LordBeck maps could be balanced some how? Decreasing loot value in thief objective or changing prices of snagged loot objects on map. If this could help there is a question why map testing (before release) didn't fix this issue.
 Originally Posted by Keggie: ( link to post ) 
...there isnt enough guards to watch all the areas, so it normaly comes down to waiting for a long time doing nothing for a guard = no fun.
Take gerome or grange, you will find a thief within 2 mins, you will chase off a thief, he will escape, 2/3 mins later, you will find him again, its much more consistant action...
But on big maps guards still have their usual options:
1) patiently camp
2) spawn rape
3) patroll and check the loot, ai, doors, objectives.
any of these options can produce in result good chasing.
You say "not enough guards". Do you mean not enough players? Cos if there are enough players on server we would have not just many guards but many thieves also. Both teams would have fun with each other.
Usually when there are many players on server we play Flats, Mensh, Breandor - already well learned maps.
 Originally Posted by Keggie: ( link to post ) 
...the best thievery maps are maps that are simple to learn from the outside away from danger...
"danger" in multiplayer=human guards? In other words nobody from us want to learn these maps in single player?
 Originally Posted by Keggie: ( link to post ) 
if its not on brody customs iv never played it, far to lazy to go vote it
If you lazy you can check this video about it http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=51odAov_YcI

BTW here rating of custom maps - http://forums.blackcatgames.com/showthread.php?t=8604
Map________________Votes________Percent
Th-Asylum-2 ________11________91,67%
TH-HighwayInn_______11________91,67%
Th-Archery__________10________83,33%
Th-Kamasutra________10________83,33%
TH-CountryAbode_____8________66,67%
TH-District2__________8________66,67%
TH-LordBeckB2_______8________66,67%
TH-Cult ____________7________58,33%
TH-DE_v2___________7________58,33%
Th-SkeltstonHeadv21_7________58,33%
TH-Apprenticev2_____6________50,00%
TH-Bafford2_________6________50,00%
TH-Kingsofthedesert2_6________50,00%
TH-Monastery76______6________50,00%
TH-AncientRuins______5________41,67%
TH-Apache71_________5________41,67%
Th-Aquatone14_______5________41,67%
Th-Geromenew2______5________41,67%
TH-Intercept_________5________41,67%
TH-LakeShorePub30___5________41,67%
TH-Sheriff ___________5________41,67%
TH-ToB_Payback______5________41,67%
Th-AirshipUnlimited____4________33,33%
TH-DanteBeta _______4________33,33%
TH-Keep3 ___________4________33,33%
TH-ThievesDen_______4________33,33%
TH-haven2 __________3________25,00%
TH-Semaiyo _________3________25,00%
TH-ToB-SwordArena __3________25,00%
TH-2O ______________2________16,67%
TH-CharnsleyFinalA____2________16,67%
Th-Crates ___________2________16,67%
Th-eTomb ___________2________16,67%
TH-Niwa ____________2________16,67%
TH-PJNew ___________2________16,67%
Th-Scripts __________2________16,67%
TH-ZidAbodeV2 ______2________16,67%
TH-Chatspace _______1________8,33%
TH-Pirates __________1________8,33%
th-protfort96A _______1________8,33%
TH-SkyTownTest4b ___1________8,33%
TH-tut ______________1________8,33%
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