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Old 31st Jul 2005, 01:15 PM   #1
daniel
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lol, forum name!

rofl!! who changed this?
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Old 31st Jul 2005, 01:54 PM   #2
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I don't know, but, I am not amused.
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Old 31st Jul 2005, 01:54 PM   #3
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I believe it is appropriate. Don't you?
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Old 31st Jul 2005, 02:20 PM   #4
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I'm very amused
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Old 31st Jul 2005, 02:21 PM   #5
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Bully for you.
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Old 31st Jul 2005, 03:14 PM   #6
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 Originally Posted by BrokenArts:
I don't know, but, I am not amused.
Me neither... I know this whining is not the thing we need now (although I was participating ) but to rename the forum is just not right.
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Old 31st Jul 2005, 03:21 PM   #7
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I think it's great, suits real good.
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Old 31st Jul 2005, 03:24 PM   #8
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Lofl very appropiate. Whoever did this just raised 100 ranks on my "Cool People" scala

Oh but since its likely one of the higher-up admins detract the Standard -20 ranks for "Too damn small Avatars", mind you.
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Old 31st Jul 2005, 03:27 PM   #9
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We'd much rather have the forum be DEAD rather than have discussions about game elements, right?
Right?


Might as well close the thread, as people much rather throw shit like monkeys and flame instead of discuss the topic.


V12US: HAY GUYS TOO MUCH DMING IN THEIVARY NOW OK
PERSON1: I AGREE DMING SUCKS
PERSON2: WTF V12US STFU
PERSON3: V12US IS A DMER WATCH OUT ITS A TRAP
V12US: WHAT THATS TAKEN OUT OF CONTEXT
PERSON4: NO U
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Old 31st Jul 2005, 03:32 PM   #10
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It's not discussion, Virus, it's complaints. Thread after thread of complaints. Even threads about other things have suffered from your recent personal vendetta against this style of play. You're not offering any solutions to the real problem. In fact, you won't even recognise what the problem is. Until then, I don't really want any more of your back seat game design commentary.
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Old 31st Jul 2005, 03:45 PM   #11
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I did make several suggestions. Hell, the original purpose for the thread was to make suggestions to fix it. it just ran completely out of hand and has now turned into a shouting contest.


It is not su much a game error as it is a problem with a part of the current community. When I'm playing thievery with alot of oldbies, it's fine. Thievery is an awesome game. However it seems that when I play with 'the other' part of the community, the game pretty much shifts from awesome to total hell.

My gripe is not that the game allows for DMing. I wouldn't like to see DMing removed from the game at all. I just would like it to be in style with the rest of the game, and not as if I'm playing UT with a jackhammer only mutator. You can't possibly tell me that's what you envisioned when you were in the process of coding thievery.



In the end it's your choice ofcourse. I don't have to tell you how to create your mod since you and the team have proven to be very very adept at that. I do however wish to give my feedback if I'm happy or unhappy with something. As far as I'm concerned it's what these forums were created for, right? You can't expect everyone to allways agree with everything.
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Old 31st Jul 2005, 03:58 PM   #12
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Sure, but that doesn't mean you have to take the complaint to every active thread in the forum.

Your suggestions on how to reduce DM'ing are fine, but to be honest, figuring that out isn't hard. There are 101 ways we could force the thieves to ghost and discourage them from fighting. The real problem, which some seemed to ignore when I mentioned it before, transcends personal playstyle preferences and is more to do with the big picture of how the game works together for everyone involved. It's a multiplayer game and it has to be fun for everyone, not just you. The problem is this:

The more the thief team plays like Garrett (i.e. slow, calculated ghosting), the less interaction there is between the two teams.

Taken to it's conclusion, the multiplayer game would break down entirely. One side would be doing effectively nothing to the game world besides making loot disappear, while the other side would be doing literally nothing. There has to be some conflict between the two sides. At the very least, ghosting has to be supported by other things, such as DMing, to keep it entertaining for the other players.

That's not to say ghosting isn't a really fun style of play for the person ghosting and having a Thiefy play experience is definitely something we'd like to support. However, it's an essentially anti-social gameplay style, so requires a lot more thought than just implementing it.

The only real way we've seen to do this in Thievery is to play with like-minded people who would gladly 'pay the cost' of a long, uneventful guard round, in order to have a tense, exciting ghosting round afterwards. That's fine, if you can find people willing to do that, but you can't expect everyone to pay that cost.
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Old 31st Jul 2005, 04:23 PM   #13
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There is where I disagree. When you get to learn a map's chockepoints, you quickly learn that finding thieves is not that hard at all. Even if they're ghosting.

What IS a problem when you encounter some of these thieves is that they outperform you in every way. They have better melee, better control (flash/crack/etc) and they have stealth on top of it. The only thing which guards seem to have over thieves is HP, which is utterly pointless as the blackjack is a oneshot KO. Therefor what you force guards to do is to bunch everything they have up in a small room with the objective, to avoid getting DM'ed, stretching games out for far longer than neccesary.

Ofcourse it isn't as black and white as I wrote it down, but it has points to consider. Nerfing DMing won't remove extreme guard camping, but it will encourage guards to patrol more. Etc etc.

Maybe end thise whole discussion here. Cloase all threads and lets call it a week.
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Old 31st Jul 2005, 04:34 PM   #14
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Some1 spammored up the name

But shouldn't it be Whining About Thievery DM-ing Forum? j/k

(above, some more of that whining on purpose), maybe we should

change the night-blade thread also?
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Old 31st Jul 2005, 04:49 PM   #15
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Virus: Regarding the first two lines of your post:

I see two DM-free scenarios:

1) Thieves attempt to ghost -> fail -> one sided combat
2) Thieves attempt to ghost -> succeed -> guards have no gameplay

Neither seems like a good game. If you see any other scenarios, please let me know in a clear concise way like above.

Regarding the rest:
Thieves may be too strong at combat, with their instakill melee weapon. This can be addressed, but we have to be careful not to encourage thief playstyle too far into ghosting for the afforementioned reasons.
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Old 31st Jul 2005, 04:52 PM   #16
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 Originally Posted by Dalai:
1) Thieves attempt to ghost -> fail -> one sided combat
2) Thieves attempt to ghost -> succeed -> guards have no gameplay
I think you're missing the most common one, at least with ghosting. Thief attempts to ghost, and either gets discovered or has to engage guards to get an objective. Both those result in interaction between the teams, although not always combat. Having a rooftop chase across Flats is as fun team interaction as a swordplay in a hallway -- it's not DMing, though.
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Old 31st Jul 2005, 04:58 PM   #17
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The chase was implied in the "one sided combat" - obviously if you have no fighting capabilities you're going to try and get away.

Is this interaction enough though? For a start you have to hope the ghosters will fail for it to even occur, and secondly the chases are usually quite quickly over. Even during it, both parties are trying as hard as they can to end the interaction.
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Old 31st Jul 2005, 05:08 PM   #18
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 Originally Posted by Dalai:
The chase was implied in the "one sided combat" - obviously if you have no fighting capabilities you're going to try and get away.

Is this interaction enough though? For a start you have to hope the ghosters will fail for it to even occur, and secondly the chases are usually quite quickly over. Even during it, both parties are trying as hard as they can to end the interaction.
The object of any interaction between teams is to end it as quickly as possible -- even with combat, you want to incapacitate them quickly to conserve resources.

Neither chases nor thieves trying to get past guard defenses are one sided, and between players of about equal skill they're rarely brief. Thieves have plenty of tools aside from their blackjack, and they work quite well for this -- but so do guards. Personally, encounters like that in Thievery are probably the most exhilarating experience I've ever had in an online game.

General guard strategy is to have about half the team camping major objectives, and the rest roaming. Roamers tend to encounter thieves fairly often, and it's often prolonged contact -- this is where most chases come from. Defeating camping guards to get an objective is forced interaction, and it usually takes several tries, and often several feints and distractions. And then if the thief succeeds, there's quite a chase to follow that can involve the entirety of both teams.

At least, that was my experience ghosting. And guarding against ghosters like that -- something I did quite regularly -- I also found quite enjoyable. It was rarely boring, maybe partly because we had a fairly low time limit.
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Old 31st Jul 2005, 05:17 PM   #19
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I agree with all that - ghosters who fail, do provide entertainment, so long as they fail regularly throughout the round.
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Old 31st Jul 2005, 05:19 PM   #20
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 Originally Posted by Dalai:
The chase was implied in the "one sided combat" - obviously if you have no fighting capabilities you're going to try and get away.
Wasn't this allways advertised as thievery gameplay? Guards kill thieves, thieves steal loot and try to avoid the guards?

 Originally Posted by Dalai:
Is this interaction enough though? For a start you have to hope the ghosters will fail for it to even occur,
Guards these days are very adept at finding thieves, and theres allways at least one chokepoint that guarantees you'll be seeing thieves if you guard there.

 Originally Posted by Dalai:
and secondly the chases are usually quite quickly over. Even during it, both parties are trying as hard as they can to end the interaction.
Isn't that the whole point of the game? Good thieves can shake guards like no other, and good guards can stick to the trail of a thief forever.

What you have been listing as bad points is how we have been playing thievery for the last few years. We gradually see the gameplay degrade into a 5 minute DM fest on each map and it's supposed to be that way, to increase interaction? Why the guards are rejoicing now that they no longer have to search for thieves, the thieves come running right at them, blackjack in the right hand, flashbombs in the left.

I enjoyed my thievery back when maps were hard for thieves. Where thieving was a challenge, where guards were overpowered, where a victory ment you were a good thief, and not how many KO's you could get.

Why did you even bother nerfing the sword at all? If we were supposed to be DM thieves all along, I could at least DM in style...
"In Soviet Russia, you don't kill thieves, thieves kill YOU!"
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Old 31st Jul 2005, 05:28 PM   #21
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 Originally Posted by -=V12US=-:
Why did you even bother nerfing the sword at all? If we were supposed to be DM thieves all along, I could at least DM in style...
"In Soviet Russia, you don't kill thieves, thieves kill YOU!"
Now you're complaining again.
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Old 31st Jul 2005, 05:31 PM   #22
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Firstly: No, thieves were never intended to be better at all-out combat than guards.

Secondly: You have to remember, Thievery was the first multiplayer stealth FPS game, it's very experimental and to be honest, it shows. Lots of the gameplay mechanics are based on singleplayer ones and they don't translate well.

Interestingly, both you and Bill have indicated that the "Scenario 1" I mentioned above is what you want.
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Old 31st Jul 2005, 05:31 PM   #23
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 Originally Posted by Dalai:
Firstly: No, thieves were never intended to be better at all-out combat than guards.

Secondly: You have to remember, Thievery was the first multiplayer stealth FPS game, it's very experimental and to be honest, it shows. Lots of the gameplay mechanics are based on singleplayer ones and they don't translate well.

Interestingly, both you and Bill have indicated that the "Scenario 1" I mentioned above is what you want.
Well jeah, scenario one is pretty much the standard ghosting strategy. Get objectives, when you run into a guard, don't get killed. Etc.

I have yet to see a thief so adept at ghosting that they have never made contact with the guards in the whole course of a game. Yes, it is the goal, but is it realistically attainable? No.
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Old 31st Jul 2005, 05:38 PM   #24
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 Originally Posted by Archie:
Now you're complaining again.
o rly?
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Old 31st Jul 2005, 05:42 PM   #25
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 Originally Posted by -=V12US=-:
Well jeah, scenario one is pretty much the standard ghosting strategy. Get objectives, when you run into a guard, don't get killed. Etc.

I have yet to see a thief so adept at ghosting that they have never made contact with the guards in the whole course of a game. Yes, it is the goal, but is it realistically attainable? No.
Well sorry, to break you down there, but it's possible to ghost through an entire match without beeing spotted, I've both seen it, and done it.
Anyway, I don't know how you can start with suggestions of how to ease down on the DM'ing when you hardly play at all. Not every game is DM, today and last night I saw more Objective matches than I saw DM'ing
ones .

Edit: Yes Really you're complaining again.

Last edited by Archie; 31st Jul 2005 at 05:54 PM.
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Old 31st Jul 2005, 06:16 PM   #26
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 Originally Posted by Dalai:
Interestingly, both you and Bill have indicated that the "Scenario 1" I mentioned above is what you want.
Not surprising, since we both saw and enjoyed it in the same place.

I'm saying that's what I had fun with, and that I think it's adequate team interaction -- no more than that.

 Originally Posted by Archie:
Well sorry, to break you down there, but it's possible to ghost through an entire match without beeing spotted, I've both seen it, and done it.
Not against even a single halfway decent guard. They camp an objective -- it's now not possible for you to win the match without being seen by them. I've also entirely ghosted matches on public servers, but only because the opposition was quite poor.
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Old 31st Jul 2005, 06:35 PM   #27
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I never mentioned the skills of the guards WildBill (and if their only half-decent that's for you to decide, not me). I simply said it was possible to ghost through an entire game without beeing spotted. Something Virus stated not realisitic.
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Old 31st Jul 2005, 06:38 PM   #28
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I played at Emke's some moments ago and it was so cool:
We played like 4-5 maps and not a single one was DMed (some G kills but it wasn't excessive).
I have to say that it is so fun to play with the objectives when you come from a DM server... The difference is so big.

To the point interaction:
As some have said (I think Virus and WildBill), guards find ghosting thieves way more often than expected. (Err.. that I have expected).
So there was a lot of interaction in the game with flashing/chasing...
A rapid succession of one sided interactions --> Can be seen as two sided interactions. That's my opinion.
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Old 31st Jul 2005, 06:41 PM   #29
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 Originally Posted by Archie:
I never mentioned the skills of the guards WildBill (and if their only half-decent that's for you to decide, not me). I simply said it was possible to ghost through an entire game without beeing spotted. Something Virus stated not realisitic.
He said it's not realistic, and it's not. Just because it's happened a few times against unorganized guard teams means nothing.
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Old 31st Jul 2005, 06:53 PM   #30
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 Originally Posted by Dalai:
Virus: Regarding the first two lines of your post:

I see two DM-free scenarios:

1) Thieves attempt to ghost -> fail -> one sided combat
2) Thieves attempt to ghost -> succeed -> guards have no gameplay

Neither seems like a good game. If you see any other scenarios, please let me know in a clear concise way like above.

Regarding the rest:
Thieves may be too strong at combat, with their instakill melee weapon. This can be addressed, but we have to be careful not to encourage thief playstyle too far into ghosting for the afforementioned reasons.
3)Thieves attempt to ghost -> Forced into choke point / objective -> Forced interaction

The main problem is how choke points and objectives can get so seriously spammed by AI/traps/sheer numbers of humans that the only way of succeeding is to dm. However that is slightly off topic actaully, so, moving back on to what you were saying:

The "interaction" in tut or and stealth game does not need to be combat or chases. That is where I disaree with you. A large part of enjoyment in the game is the "cat and mouse" element of it. For gaurds, they are not bored - if they know the maps well enough then they can have fun searching for the thief and attempting to track them - even if the ghoster does not make it obvious for the guard, there will be some evidence to go by - loot missing, doors unlocked, etc. For a skilled guard, this in itself is quite a bit to go by. You can also almost gaurantuee that a thief will leave some other evidence and means of trailing, however these would probably be classified as minor failures by the thief - loot missing and dorrs being unlocked (obviously excluding those you can relock) are inneviteable and therefore cannot be counted as "failuer" by the thief. mTherefore, there is always something to go by, and always a fun tracking element to go by. There will mostly be an actual physcal encounter between guard and thief in most games, heightening the fun, particularly with chases. There does not have to be combat for a fun game.

What I guess I am trying to say is, both a guard and a thief can have a fun game without there being an actual encounter and also that a thief can have an encounter with a guard without actual making a mistake. There is an extremely high probablility that there will be at least one thief encounter, and there is all that tracking that leasds up to it. Ai placement and trap placement go a long way to helping guards find thieves and a thief will always make some noise of some sort - whether it is in the form of lockpicks, keys, rope arrows or whatever.

A guard can have a fun game without even seeing the thief at all - merely with this tracking technique.

Okay, a one on one game on a large map can be quite boring. This is not just for the guard though but it can get a bit boring for the thief too. However you cannot blame this on the "stealth mechanic" element of the game - in an fps in the same situation of low numbers and a big map, the same thing tends to occur,players not really finding each other and when they do it isn't that exciting anyway, as there is not as much "going on". I would go as far as saying that in tut it is more fun with less people than your average fps would be, as at least there is the ai, and also there is the tracking element to keep it going.

A possible idea for nighblade or whatever could be two types of thief classes - one more combat oriented and one more stealth oriented - this could be reflected in what items they could purchase and the actual character strangths and weakness and stat type things. Jst an idea, but seems like it might work well.

Cheers, Daniel
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