Why Thieving Just Doesn't Pay Yet

[Biohazard]

The map is Breakout. There are 3 of us thieving and about 5 guarding.

I decide I'm going to ghost, and it seemed my teammates were doing the same as well. I think we had 2 KOs, and after stealing the heavily defended key, we go up the B stairway.

I open the door to find, surprise surprise, traps galore and an RLF player standing in front of the doorway. I quickly moss and drink cat+invis+speed and make a run for it, but get firebolted and killed. I tried for about 3 lives to get in and finally I got lucky and broke through, at this point with no KOs.

So I run and hide and wait awhile to only to be discovered by a random flare-scan. Get up and run again this time right into that RLF member who lays down caltrops. No big deal though, I drink a speed and run off. He drinks a speed as well and easily chases me into the library. There, another guard meets up with him and I go to a corner and throw down my FB. No affect whatsoever on my RLF buddy, who continues to chase me down. In my last ditch effort with 1 hp I drink my invis pot and run to an obscure corner. The firespamming begins and I'm toast.

The ways of DMing have been nerfed, and ghosting is supposed to be the way to go. Well, I'm sorry but I feel that guards have been beefed up to so much of an extreme that only a select few maps are beatable now as a thief.

Anyway, I'm done now.

[Majarisan]

Ghosting is not the way, its extemely hindering to limit yourself like that. Ghosting is not just 'not koing or killing'(sadly this is what the community seems to think it means). Theres much more to it than that, and while fun and challenging(I prefer to ghost) I thinks its extremely hindering and one shouldn't expect to succeed as often, particularly now, when ghosting. I agree that guards have been beefed a little more than they needed, but I for one love a challenge and I'm willing to live with it.

[ElJoelio]

Certain maps didn't have... forethought put into them during building. The map you mention is a great example of this, with the thieves only having two tiny chokepoints to choose from when getting to the surface.

it's even got to the point where i refuse to play this map

When the major 1.3 changes were first implemented, I had a bit of a whinge about how guards had been made uber, while thieves had been nerfed a fair bit. I'm still a wee bit unsatisfied with the current changes, but I'm going to leave it a few weeks or so before I finally make up my mind as to whether or not thieves are disadvantaged. As a thief, playing on certain maps (e.g. those mentioned above) definately pushes me towards thinking there is a disadvantage, but then again some other maps only require a well-placed decoy or crack arrow to completely change the odds into the thief's favour.

I'm interested to see what the thief/guard win counts amount to over the next few weeks. They'll help us to decide on any further tweaks that need to be err.. tweaked.

[modetwo]

Some maps are a living hell to beat as a ghoster, that map is a good example. But it's fully possible to ghost every map, although you won't win every single time. But I've ghosted maps like the old Aqua many times successfull, even with firespamming RLF's.

As Majarisan says, ghosting isn't actually just "don't KO or kill anyone", but also "don't get seen, heard or leave any traces behind". It's impossible not to get heard in a game against humans, but it's possible not to get seen. Thing is to use minimal of equitment - so that's also a factor here.

People say there isn't any fun to ghost, cause you're playing under rules. But really, I don't mind. I've ghosted since Thief 1 got out, ghosting is what makes a game intence, fun and interesting imo. Have it your way, play the way you want to - but I'll always ghost...

[Machine]

Ghosting is hard, its not something that can be picked up quickly, and it can be soul destroying when your detected so easily and randomly, be it just by luck or flare scans.

I too believe the guards have been beefed up too much, I have no worries about running into shadows feeling about for thieves, if I get KO'd woopie do, I'll just run down there with tags a plenty and maybe some fire to kick off the BBQ.

I need a fear as a guard, something to watch out for, something the theives can do to me that I don't want, other than them killing me which takes time (2 or 3 arrows) I have no pheer!

BUT, as Many people have said, we should gather up the theif and guard wins over a period of time and then see how fair it is.

[PhaeThorn]

Just because you din't win by ghosting on one, hard map doesn't mean ghosting is totaly not effective.

Ask people around, ghoster do tend to life longer with not getting seen ( if you do it right ) and that IS the key to succes, having a life

Anyways, i enjoy ghosting and for me it IS effective. Just try it on other maps, and actualy try to get good at it. Ghosting isn't the tipical playing style you learn with trying one time. It's kinda like playing the piano. You need time to learn stuff, and even after a greast amount of time you will learn new things.

[Machine]

Phae is right, Ghosters, generally last longer than others if they do it right, and whilst they are in less immediate risk (I.e they don't deal with the odd guard) they can get into situations which other styles of play would not allow for.

Being in the middle of a huge bunch of guards, crouched next to the supply chest as the guards run about oblivious to your presence is the best feeling ever.

Ghosting is deception, you make the guards think your not there, your somewhere else. That door is locked so you didn't pass thru there? That loot is still there so your not crouched in the darkness above it? That AI guard is in this room, but that doesn't mean your in the not shadows stood next to him?

When your a theif, think like a guard, when your a guard, think like a thief.

[!eduDageM]

When your a theif, think like a guard, when your a guard, think like a thief.

So as a thief I should attempt to kill my fellow thieves? You crazy!

[Machine]

When your a theif, think like a guard, when your a guard, think like a thief.

So as a thief I should attempt to kill my fellow thieves? You crazy!

I'm not even going to spend time thinking of a clever retort to that :|

[Mad_Gerbil]

Breakout is a tough map, even for BJ whores in 1.2 and the thieves rarely won it even with only two guards left. If I place some mines/caltrops near each door you either must run though them OR let me hack on you with my sword.

That map is a bore for thieves and guards alike.

I hope instead of "nerfing" guard that they introduce changes to maps like Breakout. Simply adding double doors to the 3rd floor would make a difference.

[Mad_Gerbil]

The map is Breakout. There are 3 of us thieving and about 5 guarding.

I decide I'm going to ghost, and it seemed my teammates were doing the same as well. I think we had 2 KOs, and after stealing the heavily defended key, we go up the B stairway.

I open the door to find, surprise surprise, traps galore and an RLF player standing in front of the doorway. I quickly moss and drink cat+invis+speed and make a run for it, but get firebolted and killed. I tried for about 3 lives to get in and finally I got lucky and broke through, at this point with no KOs.

So I run and hide and wait awhile to only to be discovered by a random flare-scan. Get up and run again this time right into that RLF member who lays down caltrops. No big deal though, I drink a speed and run off. He drinks a speed as well and easily chases me into the library. There, another guard meets up with him and I go to a corner and throw down my FB. No affect whatsoever on my RLF buddy, who continues to chase me down. In my last ditch effort with 1 hp I drink my invis pot and run to an obscure corner. The firespamming begins and I'm toast.

The ways of DMing have been nerfed, and ghosting is supposed to be the way to go. Well, I'm sorry but I feel that guards have been beefed up to so much of an extreme that only a select few maps are beatable now as a thief.

Anyway, I'm done now.

Yer new to ghosting, aren't you?
It's gonna be tough until you learn how to do it.
I've had some 'old school' ghosters leave me in the dust, some of them even avoiding a rain of firebolts.

[Bloody-Reaper]

Worst thing... Spending 30minutes with extreme ghosting, being so close to victory... Only to have a server crash

[Rob FILTH]

I agree-the uber-rambo guards in 1.3 have made this mods gameplay competely unbalanced again.If infact not the most unbalanced that its EVER been.

Thieves are winning probably about 10% of games(if that),and thats only usually the thief-friendly maps of spiders and folly that do occassionally get won.
Breakout and Gerome are virtually impossible now unless guards have given up playing the game to just arse around with their taunts to each other through boredom at not spotting a ghosting thief for half an hour.

I've never really been a mighty DM Blackjack happy thief in this game(usually obtaining only between 1 or 2 KO's throughout the whole game in 1.2)as I always prefer games to be won by objective rather than by deathmatch,but the BJ has now been nerfed to the point whereby the consequences of using it have made it completely redundant.

Ghosting does make your survival more increased,but is still absolutely NO solution to the UberGuards unlimited loadouts,half of them just firespam into the shadows on the off-chance of there being a thief there now.Less hits to kill a thief with a weapon now too I notice-making even their escape more difficult when they ARE spotted and another hugely nerfed burden to their limited load out.

The idea of guard revival is a good one and one worth fine-tuning,but I think Guards should have to be able to able to buy smelling salts or something from their load out costing maybe 30 or 50 gold each to revive a KOed comrade that theyve found-none of this insta-revival crap,and also limited to just 2 fire arrows each-cos the way things stand at the moment playing this game as a thief with their now increasingly limited load out(compared to the uber rambo fire spamming guards unlimited load out) which usually runs out before they can even get to view any bloody objective items half the time,let alone have any items left to even dare attempt stealing them is just really pretty crap.

Infact its virtually pointless.Total Bollocks.

1.3's balance sucks for Guards gameplay too-theres no challenge in taking on the Weakling Puny Nerfo-Thieves anymore,shadows just do not pose any kind of threat to the Uber-Rambo Guard,torches can be relit with unlimited fire arrows-and if a thief does happen to somehow fight the lag to get lucky and kos you-who cares?You can just leap straight into the body of another AI with another full load out and get him a few seconds later at the scene of the crime.(That is ofcourse if the Uber-AI Rambos that can hear a KO from half a mile away and flame tag him in the dark don't get him first )

No tension.No Challenge coming from the Thieves.No Balance in Gamplay.Same Predictable End-Game Result.

In short-BORING AS HELL!

The intense exciting "could-go-either-way" matches of before in 1.2,have now long gone and this mod has been ruined by the whinging of the Elite-Guard brigade who never played Thief cos they were crap at doing so and who couldn't shut up bitching about the BJ cos they couldn't master the simple learning curve needed to counter-strafe a BJ Thief.PATHETIC.

BRING BACK SOME BALANCE NOW-BEFORE THERES NO PLAYERS TO HAVE A BALANCED GAME WITH LEFT HERE TO PLAY THIS MOD.

[Ghostly apparition]

The map is Breakout. There are 3 of us thieving and about 5 guarding.

I decide I'm going to ghost, and it seemed my teammates were doing the same as well. I think we had 2 KOs, and after stealing the heavily defended key, we go up the B stairway.

I open the door to find, surprise surprise, traps galore and an RLF player standing in front of the doorway. I quickly moss and drink cat+invis+speed and make a run for it, but get firebolted and killed. I tried for about 3 lives to get in and finally I got lucky and broke through, at this point with no KOs.

So I run and hide and wait awhile to only to be discovered by a random flare-scan. Get up and run again this time right into that RLF member who lays down caltrops. No big deal though, I drink a speed and run off. He drinks a speed as well and easily chases me into the library. There, another guard meets up with him and I go to a corner and throw down my FB. No affect whatsoever on my RLF buddy, who continues to chase me down. In my last ditch effort with 1 hp I drink my invis pot and run to an obscure corner. The firespamming begins and I'm toast.

The ways of DMing have been nerfed, and ghosting is supposed to be the way to go. Well, I'm sorry but I feel that guards have been beefed up to so much of an extreme that only a select few maps are beatable now as a thief.

Anyway, I'm done now.

Yer new to ghosting, aren't you?
It's gonna be tough until you learn how to do it.
I've had some 'old school' ghosters leave me in the dust, some of them even avoiding a rain of firebolts.

But I think the point is gerbil, why should they have to avoid a rain of firebolts?
Also if you were a 'old school ghoster' we might put some weight to the criticism
of a "new ghoster" Why don't you try it yerself?
Its not just tough now, on most maps its near impossible.
besides,whoever said that thievery should be about only ghosting?
With all the complaining you have done over the months the thieves
have been nerfed to the point where thats the only choice anyone has,
only to get firespammed, shadowslashed,flarescanned by Guards who now
have nothing to fear.
I hope you're Happy now,because from what i've been reading here and in
other threads most thieves aren't.

[MortalMonkey]

My worst problem ATM is that I run out of time. The new Uber-AI just require more waiting in shadows, more creeping and more running away.
I played DE2 singleplayer (as in I was the only one playing on the server) with AI set to Uber. I din't manage to die more than three times before the 35 minutes were over. Never got more than around 600 loot, and no scary magic book either.