Third time I've been accused of spawnrape, need opinions.

[WildBill]

This involves the Flats map, and while I can not conceieve of how this is spawnrape, I figured it can't hurt to get other opinions. For clarity, I have a picture:


I will sit at one of the locations marked with a big red X. This is a significant distance from any thief spawn, and I don't attack any thieves until they cross the wooden plank bridge towards me, although I've probably been watching them before they get there. I don't see how that's spawrape, as it is not the spawn, it is a good distance from the spawn, and only one of many ways out the spawn.

I have sometimes moved as far forward as the location marked with the red O, the end of the wooden bridge. This is also quite far from spawns, although it does have a bit of a better view. I only move there once a couple minutes have passed in the round.

Also, once a thief begins shooting at me, wherever they are, I consider them to have lost the spawn protection I'm giving them. If they happen to be next to another thief that I hit while shooting at them, sorry, yell at your teammates to be a bit more stealthy, not me for guarding.

Again on Flats, the problem with guarding the exit. Once the thieves complete the objective, guards go to camp the exit. If a thief dies, they spawn near the exit, which gives them a bit of a challenge as there are guards around. Any thief I see spawning I tell them and let them get away, but the rule above applies. If they come after me, I return the favor. Is that unfair?

So, opinions? Is that spawnrape?

[PhaeThorn]

It isn't exactly spawnrape but i still count it as spawn rape.
Thieves can't pass you and are forced to go the only other path, the ground.
The ground has more risk and stuff. That area were you are, is still spawn area. Atleast ... the part untill the plank. If you are just outside that area ... it's the same as if you are inside.

It's like the map gerome. You move one bit, and are light up. Suddenly a guard jumps off the roof, and kills you. You never had a chance.

Of course it's different when you follow a thief, that runs back at his spawn. Then it's not spawn rape.

[SNAFU]

Spawncamping, I think, is best defined as positioning oneself close enough to a spawn area as to be able to hurt them, and then doing so.

Essentially, that would mean a direct line of sight in most games.

Spawnrape however, means positioning oneself so close as to effectively and efficently kill spawning players.

For purposes of Thievery, that would mean positioning for an easy HtH attack.(standing INSIDE the spawn area)

Do you have a direct line of sight to any spawning players or spawn positions?

[WildBill]

PhaeThorn, thieves can certainly pass me. I'm just making it a bit harder for them to take the otherwise very easy route to wonderfully darkened roofs with loot lying around where cracking guards basically means killing them. But by your argument, simply by guarding an important passage and making them either face me or a more risky path is bad? How is that different from camping an objective?

Spawncamping, I think, is best defined as positioning oneself close enough to a spawn area as to be able to hurt them, and then doing so.

Do you have a direct line of sight to any spawning players or spawn positions?

This is the distinction. While I can see them I don't attack until they cross the plank, which in my mind takes them out of the spawn. For that matter, unless they do something stupid, I can't even really see them.

[NeoPendragon]

Yeah, that can be frustrating as a thief because there's no way to get past except the roads. Of course, a good solution is to crack arrow the guard.

[WildBill]

Yeah, that can be frustrating as a thief because there's no way to get past except the roads. Of course, a good solution is to crack arrow the guard.

Frustrating, yes. That's the point is that it's hard to get passed, it's a nice choke point on a mostly thief map. But is it spawnrape?

[Mad_Gerbil]

I don't see a problem, Bill.
Thieves have crack arrows, invis, flash, catwalk, stealth, and bj's to get by you. And that is if they don't wish to take the road.

The whole idea of being a guard is to reduce thief options to the point they have to take a risk to survive. A freshly spawned thief that cannot get to the rest of the map because you are there just doesn't know what they are doing.

[Mad_Gerbil]

JEEZ, I just looked at your picture again, Bill.
They drink ONE 30gp catfall and they are sooooo gone.

They must be pissed because you've positioned yourself in a way that they must run instead of the normal thief response when confronted with a guard, the BJ.

[WildBill]

JEEZ, I just looked at your picture again, Bill.
They drink ONE 30gp catfall and they are sooooo gone.

They must be pissed because you've positioned yourself in a way that they must run instead of the normal thief response when confronted with a guard, the BJ.

It's incredible. They have to see me there, and yet they still charge me. A couple try to hit me with crack arrows, but I'm good at dodging those. And they just run right at me. Firebolt. Sword. "SPAWNRAPE!"

Someone actually did use a catfall last night, which was an elegant solution. I jumped down on top of the, took the health damage, and mario'd 'em. Climbed back up and waited for the next victim. ^_^

[-=V12US=-]

Gerbil, how about we place you on a map where you have to use all your fire
arrows before you can even start hunting thieves? You're seriously handicapped.
that way, making it so that you can never win the map anymore.

Spawnraping is in my opinion handicapping the opposite team in such a way that
they cannot get an even start, wether it is by taking their lives or depriving them
of banked loot, it doesn't matter.

Take the Korman rectory ruby for instance, the thieves can rush there and take it
before the guards find it if they're lucky. Effectively that is spawnraping as well,
because without the rectory ruby, Korman is like a breeze to win for the thieves.

Every act where thieves actually have to use an item or pay with health to start
playing is spawnraping, because it unbalances the game.

[WildBill]

And Virus, your opinion in this case?

[-=V12US=-]

And Virus, your opinion in this case?

It's a borderline case, spawnraping just might not be the right word, but I use it because there isn't a better one.

Just take a look at the pic, he has total overview of where the thieves are going, if
they go up, he can kill them. If they go down, he can see them leave the tunnel
and he has but to inform a fellow guard that a thief is below there.

I don't take it as cheating or whatever, but I do find it very lame.
Same goes for camping the docks in Skeltstonhead, and rushing to the spawning
tunnel exits in folly.

[NeoPendragon]

Yeah, that can be frustrating as a thief because there's no way to get past except the roads. Of course, a good solution is to crack arrow the guard.

Frustrating, yes. That's the point is that it's hard to get passed, it's a nice choke point on a mostly thief map. But is it spawnrape?

I'd have to say no, but its pretty damn close. I agree with Virus too.

The official maps need to be better adjusted in how AI are inhabited. The guards near objectives need to be inhabited first. The guards nearest to the thief spawns need to be set to be inhabited last.

[Mad_Gerbil]

Gerbil, how about we place you on a map where you have to use all your fire
arrows before you can even start hunting thieves? You're seriously handicapped.
that way, making it so that you can never win the map anymore.

Spawnraping is in my opinion handicapping the opposite team in such a way that
they cannot get an even start.

Take the Korman rectory ruby for instance, the thieves can rush there and take it
before the guards find it if they're lucky. Effectively that is spawnraping as well,
because without the rectory ruby, Korman is like a breeze to win for the thieves.

Every act where thieves actually have to use an item or pay with health to start
playing is spawnraping, because it unbalances the game.

I'd hardly consider a crack arrow or a single catfall potion to be "spawn rape".

[WildBill]

Yeah, that can be frustrating as a thief because there's no way to get past except the roads. Of course, a good solution is to crack arrow the guard.

Frustrating, yes. That's the point is that it's hard to get passed, it's a nice choke point on a mostly thief map. But is it spawnrape?

I'd have to say no, but its pretty damn close. I agree with Virus too.

The official maps need to be better adjusted in how AI are inhabited. The guards near objectives need to be inhabited first. The guards nearest to the thief spawns need to be set to be inhabited last.

That's the other thing about this. I have yet to inhabit a guard even close to there. By the time I -get- to those spots, at least a minute has elapsed, all the thieves have spawned, and many are on their merry ways. More often than not, I encounter some before I even get to those spots.

Rushing the tunnels on Folly and docks on Skeltsonhead is different. Thieves actually spawn there. Guarding above the crates or the steps down to the town from the docks on Skeltsonhead isn't bad, is it? That seems more an analogous situation here. How far back do you have to be for it -not- to be spawnrape? That path over the rooves is just one of many exits from the general spawn area for thieves. I think it's the best, and hence an excellent spot for guards to deny thieve access to the best route to loot.