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  • Breandor Beta 4 released

    Visit the Shadow Guild site for info, and please post any bugs you find here. I would, of course, be grateful for any mirrors.

    Two credits I forgot to put in the readme (sorry) have already occurred to me:

    The_Dan for scripting, and ElJoelio, for helping me repeatedly with various bugs.

  • #2
    Wohoo, I can officialy say this a map that is in the top3 best maps in tut. Let's just hope the community doesn't rape it.

    Great one nachimir!
    On demand this signature has been changed. I hope nobody was insulted or got harmed due to my signature. If this is the case, I'm fully responsible for the harm that was done. Do you feel harmed or you simply want a listening ear?

    Call 0900-PHAE

    Comment


    • #3
      Ahhhhhh *anytime now* aye Nach. Goes and grabs it.

      Comment


      • #4
        It'll be on the Crackaz server within an hour.

        Comment


        • #5

          Hey zeus, Crystal!!!!
          I just choked on my peanutbutter smoothy!!
          (as I whip my arse over to the ShadowGuild!!)

          ...and all is silent, save the voice of the clock...

          Comment


          • #6
            That map is accrubaholohicly beautiful.
            JM

            Comment


            • #7
              Nach...

              Map is Gorgeous, you did a hell of a job on the inside especially. However, as usual, my Quality Assurance ways force me to give you the break down of things I found wrong.

              1. Some of the room were empty, like i understand that dart board room, but the rest of the rooms on that floor were kinda plain.

              2. Some continuity lost me, I'd walk into this gray dismal old castle looking area, then i open a door and poof im in this radiant beuatiful hallway with luscious loads of loot.

              3. Sword and Shield room is quite easy to camp... especially since there is a good part of the loot needed in there, there are a lot of vine exits, but vines have bugs of their own... it may not be critical, but just something to watch.

              4. That secret ladder goin to the secret bookcase has two levers right next to eachother... the one embedded in the wall by the ladder is pretty much useless since u cant climb the ladder while its open. Simply goto the top and hit that lever and walk right in.

              5. FPS drops significantly outside by the fountains.

              6. Map of level is quite unfinished in the center part..im sure u know that though.

              7. Same spawn over and over? died 3 times spawned same spot... bad if guards can get to it.

              8. Unfortunately, I am afraid that all this hard work might go down the drain like Th-Payback did. Its a great map, just like payback, but its not a 100% Theivery Map... It's waaaay to big and way too under guarded in some areas. Also, its too deep, you got castle remains down low, then as u go higher and higher its get more robust, but since there is no real significant loot down in the castle remains, its kind of a wasted valiant effort since there is no reason to go down there except for maybe a second path or escape route, which in turn leads to hundreds of shadows and very few chances of guards and thieves running into eachother.

              I understand that its still beta and there may be some guard changes or adds, but the map size needs to drop significantly...

              Also similar to SoulsHarbor & Archery, the loot is too spread out, in big mansions with lots of rooms, a theif could be in any room hiding.. no way to find them.. Thievery maps put a choke on the amount of loot in the map so that certain spots may or may not be options to reach loot goal...

              Like in Grange, the loot in the billiard room.. or the loot in the upstairs wing are needed... so thats a simple 2 choke points to watch. Same with DE, loot in 2 houses, only 2 choke points... again in nostalgia, main gallery or lyre...2 choke points.... But maps like payback, souls, and Archery all failed because of the loot scatter coupled with their extreme sizes. All of the above is: IMHO.

              I've also posted this at the Shadow guild bug forum.

              Comment


              • #8
                - kewl, the spawn area is guard friendly. It can not be reached by guards ( unless they use a vine, jump on 2 other guards, or build themself a big tower of crates. )

                - The room are not empty, but you will see that when you play it more. In everyroom there is mostly loot, wether it's a tiny coin on the ground or a openable door, like a chest or dresser.

                - There are MANY ways into the objective room. You will learn them by time too.

                - The loot in the objective room is not needed. There is enough loot to do without the loot in the objective room. Also this you will see in time.

                - The switch you mentioned is not useless. It's for if the door is open and you come from downstairs. hen you need it.

                - The size is correct. If you play it more you will see that. I thought about this too in the beginning, but then I played it more and more. And I began to love it more and more.

                This map simply needs a different style of guarding. Not the simple "wait in a corner of an objective room with a giant firebolt ready" style.
                On demand this signature has been changed. I hope nobody was insulted or got harmed due to my signature. If this is the case, I'm fully responsible for the harm that was done. Do you feel harmed or you simply want a listening ear?

                Call 0900-PHAE

                Comment


                • #9
                  Agreed with Phae, completely!
                  JM

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    You can put a big ol' ditto after what Phae said for me. Many of your assessments come from just not having learned the map's ins and outs. For instance, there are at LEAST 4 ways into the display room with the sword and shield objective. There may be more, but I'm not saying.

                    However, a couple things need comment that Phae didn't say anything about.

                    Originally posted by KewlAzMe
                    2. Some continuity lost me, I'd walk into this gray dismal old castle looking area, then i open a door and poof im in this radiant beuatiful hallway with luscious loads of loot.
                    What you're describing here is exactly what one would expect to see with the map being what it is. It's a fortified monastery, abandoned and fallen into disrepair, and partially restored by a wealthy noble. The parts he, his family and his servants live in has become quite opulent.

                    Originally posted by KewlAzMe
                    7. Same spawn over and over? died 3 times spawned same spot... bad if guards can get to it.
                    Similar to what Phae said. One of the BEST designed spawns in any map, similar to Spiders. It's not completely inaccessible to guards, but the only way they can get into it is if the thieves are careless and leave a vine arrow stuck where they shouldn't.

                    Originally posted by KewlAzMe
                    8. Unfortunately, I am afraid that all this hard work might go down the drain like Th-Payback did. Its a great map, just like payback, but its not a 100% Theivery Map... It's waaaay to big and way too under guarded in some areas. Also, its too deep, you got castle remains down low, then as u go higher and higher its get more robust, but since there is no real significant loot down in the castle remains, its kind of a wasted valiant effort since there is no reason to go down there except for maybe a second path or escape route, which in turn leads to hundreds of shadows and very few chances of guards and thieves running into eachother.
                    I dont see any of this as a design problem. Loot normally isn't going to be left lying around the outskirst of an aristo's property (actually, there's an amazing amount of loot outside - these people really need to keep track of their goblets better). There's a peripheral area the thieves can use to stage in in relative safety, then there's where all the money is, inside.

                    Originally posted by KewlAzMe
                    Like in Grange, the loot in the billiard room.. or the loot in the upstairs wing are needed... so thats a simple 2 choke points to watch. Same with DE, loot in 2 houses, only 2 choke points... again in nostalgia, main gallery or lyre...2 choke points.... But maps like payback, souls, and Archery all failed because of the loot scatter coupled with their extreme sizes. All of the above is: IMHO.
                    Not sure what you're getting at here. You seem to be saying there's not enough loot, or what there is is in areas too easily chokepointed, but earlier you said it was too SPREAD OUT. In any event, there's far more than enough loot, in easy enough to get locations. The goal for the map is 1500. Did you happen to notice what the map total for loot is? It's well over 3000. That makes this a map on which you need about the lowest percentage of available loot on the map to meet objective.

                    You could sit and make a list of grievances like this against any map in the game. You could even do it in such a way that every single one of them was completely accurate. But that's what a good map is supposed to do, CHALLENGE both teams.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by LaughingRat
                      It's not completely inaccessible to guards, but the only way they can get into it is if the thieves are careless and leave a vine arrow stuck where they shouldn't.
                      well, ther is that one staircase for the gardener (usesthe gardener's key)

                      Originally posted by LaughingRat
                      But that's what a good map is supposed to do, CHALLENGE both teams.
                      YES! Someone FINALLY made a good, perfectly (or near-perfectly) balanced map!

                      LR, I hate to say this, but you're perfectly right.

                      2 big bugs.

                      1) the Shield says "special item" when in your inventory.

                      2) the small BSP hole in the skybox that makes it llook like dawn whnen loking over the rooves ( i got a scrnshot if you want it.)

                      Also, what's that shield doing on the roof?
                      "Just off the border of your waking mind there lies another time, where darkness and light are one. As you tread the halls of sanity, you feel so glad to be unable to go beyond. I have a message from another time."

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Radamanthus
                        Originally posted by LaughingRat
                        It's not completely inaccessible to guards, but the only way they can get into it is if the thieves are careless and leave a vine arrow stuck where they shouldn't.
                        well, ther is that one staircase for the gardener (usesthe gardener's key)
                        Doesn't lead to the thief's spawn.

                        Originally posted by LaughingRat
                        But that's what a good map is supposed to do, CHALLENGE both teams.
                        Originally posted by Radamanthus
                        YES! Someone FINALLY made a good, perfectly (or near-perfectly) balanced map!

                        LR, I hate to say this, but you're perfectly right.
                        You HATE to say that? LMAO!

                        Originally posted by Radamanthus
                        1) the Shield says "special item" when in your inventory.
                        Hadn't noticed that.

                        Originally posted by Radamanthus
                        2) the small BSP hole in the skybox that makes it llook like dawn whnen loking over the rooves ( i got a scrnshot if you want it.)
                        I believe you. That hole's been there for a few versions. It only seems to occur occasionally, though, and only from certain angles.

                        Originally posted by Radamanthus
                        Also, what's that shield doing on the roof?
                        ........

                        There's a shield on the roof?

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          heres some of my first impressions after playing your map for about an hour or two:

                          This entire level is a perfect example of how a level can be balanced with visuals, architechture, and gameplay. For example, a level may look good, but it doesnt play well, and it may have great textures and lighting, but the overall design of the architechture is boring. However, for any aspiring mappers, I would point to this map to show just how atmospheric and detailed a map can be, and still be very interesting and fun. It always seems to suprise me that an incredibley well made level like this can bring such freshness to Thievery. The texture schemes, light placement and color, sound effects (especially the ambient ones), guard routes, over all design, and attention to detail are all spot on. For me, this level has a great sense of charm. Like the dart board, that obviously didnt need to be there, but you did put it in, and that small thing to add made something very memorable about the map, I can already see bored human guards playing darts on that board with crossbows. Just from playing the level once on single player I already have a few memorable moments against the AI. And they wouldnt have been memorable if the surroundings hadnt been so well made. I think that's something really important in level design that even a lot of professional mappers don't always get right. Their level may play well, have great visuals and interesting architechture, but it just doesn't have enough contrast to make certain places memorable. To me, that's the sign of a really great map when you can tie all that together and still have that crucial contrast so the map doesnt all blur together in your memory. In my opinion, I think this is one of best looking thievery maps to date (not just the FMs). Those ten months definetely payed off well. Id love to see the final version of this level included in the next Thievery patch just so everyone will have it and it could be on regular rotation on servers.

                          Now, a few gripes. The framerate does take a dive in a lot of places on the map, this was the same for soulsharbor so I think its just my slow computer, Id like to upgrade my computer just to see this map how its meant to be played. Also, not sure if this was just one instance, but the guard up near the dart board didnt have a voice. Im assuming you put all custom voices for guards? Since all the names are custom. And one other thing, I think itd be great if you were able to climb the chains of the chandeliers. This may already be implemented into the map, but I couldnt ever grab it if it was.

                          Well, I think thats all. If you cant tell, I like your map.
                          "Shivers running down my spine,
                          whos blood? I know its mine.
                          -I am The Hunted"

                          GBH

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by LaughingRat
                            .

                            Originally posted by KewlAzMe
                            8. Unfortunately, I am afraid that all this hard work might go down the drain like Th-Payback did. Its a great map, just like payback, but its not a 100% Theivery Map... It's waaaay to big and way too under guarded in some areas. Also, its too deep, you got castle remains down low, then as u go higher and higher its get more robust, but since there is no real significant loot down in the castle remains, its kind of a wasted valiant effort since there is no reason to go down there except for maybe a second path or escape route, which in turn leads to hundreds of shadows and very few chances of guards and thieves running into eachother.
                            I dont see any of this as a design problem. Loot normally isn't going to be left lying around the outskirst of an aristo's property (actually, there's an amazing amount of loot outside - these people really need to keep track of their goblets better). There's a peripheral area the thieves can use to stage in in relative safety, then there's where all the money is, inside.

                            Don't quote me yet, but i see a Payback part 2 here.

                            Originally posted by KewlAzMe
                            Like in Grange, the loot in the billiard room.. or the loot in the upstairs wing are needed... so thats a simple 2 choke points to watch. Same with DE, loot in 2 houses, only 2 choke points... again in nostalgia, main gallery or lyre...2 choke points.... But maps like payback, souls, and Archery all failed because of the loot scatter coupled with their extreme sizes. All of the above is: IMHO.
                            Not sure what you're getting at here. You seem to be saying there's not enough loot, or what there is is in areas too easily chokepointed, but earlier you said it was too SPREAD OUT. In any event, there's far more than enough loot, in easy enough to get locations. The goal for the map is 1500. Did you happen to notice what the map total for loot is? It's well over 3000. That makes this a map on which you need about the lowest percentage of available loot on the map to meet objective.
                            .
                            You seemed to miss the point here.. The fact that there is 3000 is the problem. If the objective is 1500, there shouldn't be more than 2500 in the map and a quarter of that loot needs to be in a centralized location... This is the big problem in Th-Payback... All loot and the red moon is on the 3rd floor... the rest of the level is wasted if u are guarding down there against someone who knows this.

                            DE - 2 distinct houses hold high amounts of loot
                            Nostalgia - Big Loot Lyre plus some, or, main gallery and rest of level loot. once again..these big loot areas are centralized.
                            Theatre - Rooms are connecting only, no random bedrooms with no loot and no point. Major loot in Theatre tables and piano room.
                            Asylum - Body! centralized.. In cells however its quite impossible without rushing or DMing.
                            Gerome - Evidence! centralized... also quite impossible to be won consistently without DM or rush.
                            Aquatone - APO, directors, and guest rooms main locations needed to guard.
                            Warehouse - Personal vaults, 300loot grail, Warehouse vaults... main locations to guard.
                            Korman - Rectory or Crypt for gems.. only 4 doors in crypt to keep tabs on very close together.. and easy to guard safes in rec


                            Now:

                            Payback - all loot upstairs, and all loot downstairs.. each floor has about 12 diff rooms, then there is a bar area, then there is a music room area, then servants quarters, and of course the red moon rock area. Thats 6-7 diff areas to guard. No one wants to guard because no one knows where to guard except for the moon rock which has a huge exit hole at top. once thats gone.. its pretty much lost usually.

                            Souls Harbor - Heart can be reached in 18 secs, after that there is some loot at top of bell tower, lower bell tower, a few vases in the hall, a dining room, and broken walled library, and some attic space to check out. once again 7 areas to guard.

                            Archery - again, big mansion, lots of random bedrooms.. no one checks them all, and then the entire upstairs is just purple and dark. At least this map has a centralized location for loot with that statue, however, the rest of the loot is scattered in different wings and different bedrooms down long halls... no one likes to guard that either...in fact thieves cant usually even find all the loot.

                            Im not saying this is for sure going to happen with this map.. but i do see this map slowly falling out of the vote pool... but ive only played once and perhaps after i get used to it i may change my mind.

                            Number one biggest concern is that not all servers are 10 people always! i played as thief against 2 guards and i didnt see them once, until i saw them at the objectives.... Never died because i never saw many gaurds.. Eventually.. time expired and i had the objectives and 998 loot. saw a human guard once in the garden and once by the objectives... other than that i think i saw 4 AI total.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              I again say this kewl, but the map just needs a different guard tactic.

                              And to killed, the chandeliers are climbable and are easy to reach ( for me )
                              On demand this signature has been changed. I hope nobody was insulted or got harmed due to my signature. If this is the case, I'm fully responsible for the harm that was done. Do you feel harmed or you simply want a listening ear?

                              Call 0900-PHAE

                              Comment

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