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  • Spawnrape?

    No this isn't a rant about DM'ing, or perhaps not even a rant at all. Oh wait, yes it is a rant... but I'm not throwing a fit or anything, actually I'm quite calm. the only reason I'm posting this thread is for the better of thievery.
    Now stop staring at me like that and wait till I finish my story.


    Okay, everyone knows that guards don't spawnrape... well at least they don't intend to. Sometimes when a thief flees into a spawn area, blah blah... you know the story. Now why don't guards spawnrape? I mean, it's an excelent tactic! Just get a firebolt loadout, bring an AI or 2, spam a spawnpoint and watch the bodies drop (and your score rise!). If it's so excelent, then why don't we see this happening on all the servers?

    Right.

    Because it's lame... no arguement on that. Spawnraping is lame. No sarcasm intended.

    It allows guards to win before the thieves even have a chance of using tactics (whether it be DM or ghost). Plus, the thieves have no real counter to spawnraping. Spawnrape is allmost a guaranteed loss for thieves (depending on maps offcourse). This is the reason why spawnrape was made a banable offense. Everyone wants thievey to be enjoyable, so any flaws in the game (actually because of certain maps) have to be accounted for by forbidding them in the rules.

    Now what's my point you ask?
    Allright, first let me explain this a bit further.

    Why is spawnrape such a succesfull tactic, I mean the core essence of spawnrape?
    You take the thieves lives. Right. You may not get them all, but a thiefteam with 2 thieves versus a full team of guards and AI stands little chance. I think we all agree that the thieves lives are very important.

    Now let's take it a bit further. What is the most important thing to guards? It's not the lives, that's for sure. Thieves can KO whatever they want, but 90% times of the game, KO'ing wont help you one bit. The only thing you accomplish is making it easier for you to navigate the map... temporarely.

    Well, if guards don't need the lives, then what IS most important to them? What makes them lose?

    Right again.

    When thieves accomplish their objectives.
    So you could say objectives are the most important thing for a guard. When these are taken away, the guards stand little chance of winning.

    Back to spawnraping again.
    Guards spawnrape if they rush and take away what is most important for the thieves. Their lives.
    Couldn't it be then that thieves can also spawnrape? By rushing and taking away that which is most important to the guard team? Namely the objectives?

    Allmost all I see lately is thieves rushing the objectives (which, because of certain maps, are often easier to reach for the thieves than for guards), or at least the main objective. Blatant examples are maps like folly, asylum, nostalgia and spider. Thieves often retrieve the objectives on these maps so fast that the guard team has nothing else to do but run around, hoping they bump into thieves. Seeing as they lost their objectives.

    I don't like those games. It literally makes it pointless to play as a guard.
    You can be the best player in the world, but if the objectives are taken away even before you know where your teammates or chest is, then you stand no chance.

    Isn't this 'objective rushing' the same as spawnraping then? I mean, both are incredibly effective tactics that litterally mean 'rushing the opposing team and taking away their most valuable points before they get a chance to play', yet only one team gets banned for doing so. Weird eh?

    Finally, if by now you still don't agree with me, then answer this question.


    How do you like thievery the most?

    1: Playing intense games in which you have to pull everything to 'get that lyre' or ruby, map whatever. Or where you can finally claim victory for your team after you've knocked that silly guard who chased you through the shadows, Acting like a real thief/assassin?

    or

    2: Where the only gameplay for thieves consists of buying speed and invisible potions so you can rush that main objective while there's only one guard there, crippling the guard team and thus ensuring yourself an easy win?


    If you answered two, then the only thing I can ask of you is to play guard for a while, and try not to complain about people rushing you before you can even whisper "over here" to your team.

    If everyone disagrees with me, then I demand spawnraping (the guards kind) be scrapped of the banning list, so we guards get a way to defend against this lame method of playing.


    Discuss
    1
    Yes they do!
    100.00%
    1
    No, offcourse not!
    0.00%
    0

  • #2
    Rushing is a great tactic. Both teams can do it and both have almost same chances to get there first (depends on spawn place, which AI you have taken over).

    I remember one time we had BEST GAME EVAR on folly. 4 vs 4. I was a guard. Everyone rushed the gem (it was up) and suddenly 3 thiefes met 3 guards and it was a masssacre. Firebolts, traps, flashbombs, crack, swords. Some thief got the ruby and jumped downstairs, so we jumped also and killed him. But the previously killed thiefes respawned and rushed back. So again we had a massacre, KOs, kills everywhere, flares, fire. Durig that time (it was about 80 seconds) the ruby was taken and dropped like 6 times. Adding that nice objective sound comming all the time (New objective: , objective completed:, New objective: , and so on) it was fastest most intense game ever.

    Getting back to rushing. A lot of maps have random objective placement, so sometimes you rush, use potions, but *plonk* it isn't there. Its sometimes a matter of luck.
    In the Future, One Duck Is The Law.

    Comment


    • #3
      I've got to say I agree with V12US on this one.

      You can take it another way too...

      You get to play a big long game as guard (a good game, too), and you're all ready to thief, and before you start its over cause of an obj rusher and PFFT there goes your chance to thief. I hate that!
      Garlisk's Fantasy Art Gallery
      www.usyetzer.com

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      • #4
        Originally posted by Flack
        <cut>

        Getting back to rushing. A lot of maps have random objective placement, so sometimes you rush, use potions, but *plonk* it isn't there. Its sometimes a matter of luck.
        Same goes for rushing the thieves spawnpoint. You may waste firebolts, but the thieves could have spawned somewhere else. Matter of luck also.

        Comment


        • #5
          Bummer.
          "A gerbil is a rodent, wretched creature and quite possibly represents yourself there unclean vile obsolete weak and live happily in there and others filth, they have caused plague and death to humans and nearly wiped us out" - industrialism

          Comment


          • #6
            Let one thing be clear. I don't want to spawnrape! I strongly dislike it, because there's no real tactics or teamwork involved. It's just that if I have to play one more game where I'm at the objective and it get's flash/crack stolen even before my teammates finish buying, I'm gonna go insane.

            Comment


            • #7
              Rushing is a counter for stacking and camping.

              Gerome - thieves rush to the book to have atleast a chance of winning by objectvies.
              Aslyum - Thieves rush te body to have atleast a chance of winning by objective, against Firespamcamping guards with alot of traps and AIs.
              Same goes for skelstonhead, spider ( placing all ais in front of the door is basicly the only tactic guards can use. And that is just so anoying )

              Now on a map like folly, it's stupid to rush the ruby. It's just so anoying. However when you dont rush it, you can still take the ruby without blinking your eyes. So basicly the map is screwed anyhow, untill there comes a fix on that.

              I, myself, am I fast thief. I use stealth when needed, but if I am able to, I grab the loot with running. So basicly I rush, since I go straight for the objective. But I do this not on maps like folly. Sure I still am fast, but atleast I go for loot and give guards the chance to set up the camps for the ruby.
              On demand this signature has been changed. I hope nobody was insulted or got harmed due to my signature. If this is the case, I'm fully responsible for the harm that was done. Do you feel harmed or you simply want a listening ear?

              Call 0900-PHAE

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              • #8
                Why do I rush for objectives?

                Because you are going to spam the library door with 20 catlops, and 5 mines if I let you get your defenses set up.

                There is a counter to rushing - Most of the time a guard can get to the obj first.

                There is sometimes no counter to spawnraping. Yes, DE is one map where if some fool is DMing in the water, and the guards are all over the spawn, I don't consider it to be too much of a problem. You have 10 seconds of invis. In those 10 seconds you can mantle over to the water, and you are safe from the guards.

                However, on practicly every other map, guards in spawn = thieves have to use items to get out. And that's just bloody lame.

                Comment


                • #9
                  I do not mind the rushing and I think it is actually balanced. As stated it is a counter to objective stacking for the thieves. Guards can also rush the objectives. Now if all the guards and all the thieves rush the same place, add a little fire, a little paralyse, and the thief team will come out hurting with nothing to show for it.

                  Theives can truly spawn rape- have had it happen to me. Spawn in dark place- KO'ed as soon as I move, Crack-arrow-arrow-and-dead, or similar. Do not like it, but those cases are hard in that if the theif does not, then they could be victim of reverse spawn rape (guard appears out of nowhere, for examle, behind a thief who snuck in with no notice and proceeds to pound the life out of said thief.)
                  Give some taffer fire, and you'll keep him warm for the night with one less reason to cause trouble for the master.
                  Set a taffer on fire, and he will be warm for the rest of his life, and have no need to bother the master.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Swiss Mercenary
                    Why do I rush for objectives?

                    Because you are going to spam the library door with 20 catlops, and 5 mines if I let you get your defenses set up.
                    Moss arrows.
                    You prolly have your blackjack out too much to know you have the availability of moss arrows. They get rid of the caltrops. Cool, eh?

                    However, on practicly every other map, guards in spawn = thieves have to use items to get out. And that's just bloody lame.
                    1) I'm unaware of a single spawn that 10 seconds of spawn invisibility doesn't give more than enough time to get out.

                    2) Even if you do have to use a potion to get out then you are in a situation where the guards are playing in the spawn and you are cleaning up protected objectives.

                    3) You've bragged about killing 4-5 AI on Korman with arrows before the players have had a chance to gather the AI up and place them. Cry me a river.
                    "A gerbil is a rodent, wretched creature and quite possibly represents yourself there unclean vile obsolete weak and live happily in there and others filth, they have caused plague and death to humans and nearly wiped us out" - industrialism

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Look, all I'm saying is that I play guard for myself AND for the thieves. It wouldn't be much fun if you had to play against the AI now would it?

                      Now dig this, by rushing the objectives, you're making it impossible for guards to do what they're supposed to do. Guard the objectives.

                      Why circumvent the interaction between thieves and human guards when you can have so much more fun trying to outsmart us or hell, even DM us. Rushing objectives is lame and makes the game boring for everyone except the person who rushed the objectives. Three minute games are no fun.

                      And as a note, jeah, we may guard the objectives, we may camp them like mad... but we're bound to unwritten laws as well (IE: Don't put crates/chest/corpses on objectives, etc etc). Plus, the satisfaction of retrieving an objectiv that the guards think was unretrievable should be way better than that of getting an objective before half of the guard team even has a loadout (mission impossible effect)...

                      You people should play thievery for fun, and not for winning.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        I find it funny that thieves who complain about guards in their spawn area are often themselves the ones who got them there in the first place.

                        Thief makes noise, AI rushes to spawn, AI gets knocked out, 10 (?) minutes later the AI wakes up and kills a thief in the spawn area. /gg

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          I hear what you sayin, disagree that it is a problem. There are obejective items, but that is not all the the thieves have to get/do. Why should the guards limit themselves to camping the objectives? If that is the only plan they have, you leave yourself vulnerable if a weakness is found. In the case of camping, one weakness is rushing. A counter mightd be let them have the objective with minor resistance, forcing them to waste items, while the main force sets up traps elsewhere on the level.

                          You also mention unwritten rules- not everybody follows those rules, nor is ther any reason too. The things you mention might make htngs difficult, but far from impossible. In fact I noticed the more experienced gamers seem to not even be hindered by them. When you say play for fun not win, I assume you mean do not feed your ego by demolishing your opponent. If so, I agree with that, but that deals with issues outside the game. I myself play because I enjoy it, and when I play, it is to win. I hope the others are doing so too. I do not hold back (unless I am helping a new player learn the ropes) and hope the other players do the same. If they are not, it is not as enjoyable for me. If that means living with thieves who rush objectives, so be it. The only I thing I see the need to hold back on is killing players where they spawn. Not really a problem with guards, but not letting the thieves even start is no fun. Rushing the objective gives thieves a headstart perhaps, but the game may be far from over.
                          Give some taffer fire, and you'll keep him warm for the night with one less reason to cause trouble for the master.
                          Set a taffer on fire, and he will be warm for the rest of his life, and have no need to bother the master.

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                          • #14
                            [sarcasm]

                            You're missing the point V12US. If you want a fair, balanced game for guards, go play Guardery. This is THIEVERY.

                            [/sarcasm]

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                            • #15
                              1) I'm unaware of a single spawn that 10 seconds of spawn invisibility doesn't give more than enough time to get out.

                              2) Even if you do have to use a potion to get out then you are in a situation where the guards are playing in the spawn and you are cleaning up protected objectives.

                              3) You've bragged about killing 4-5 AI on Korman with arrows before the players have had a chance to gather the AI up and place them. Cry me a river.[/quote]

                              -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

                              Ever tried spawning in the dark hallways in Aqua? If the guard team isn't a bunch of zombies, that place begins to crawl with trigger happy guards. Open a door, and eat a firebolt... Mmmmm...

                              2) What if two guards are screwing around in the spawn, and 2 others defend the objectives?

                              3) And, when I'm a guard, I can save at least 3 of them. Plug a few bolts into them, they will get mad, start runnign around, thieves will likely miss, and the AI can be saved.

                              Re: Gerome: Yeah, it's obvious that I have to use this nifty thing called a moss arrow. Then, I find out that the guards had a brain, and spread the catlops out, dumped 5 AI in there, and not to mention the said mines.

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