DMing

[Nuclear]

I'd like to know why DMing is so bad? I mean, it isnt as if its easy for a thief to dm a guard, and thieves are generally known for skills with a blade etc.

I've been dmed, and i feel annoyed because if i do the same. I get moaned at and get a bad reputation, doesn't seem to happen to anyone else though.

[WildBill]

It's not hard to DM guards. I've gotten over ten KOs against human guards in one life before; once you practice for a while you'll get good at it. The reason it's so frowned upon now is that the blackjack is far too powerful, and the thief bow is better than the guards crossbow. Thieves should not be able to take on guards head to head, and yet they have superior equipment so they can.

And yes, it does happen to everyone else. Gerbil isn't discriminatory in his whinings. ^_^

[Mad_Gerbil]

DM'ing is a legal form of play.
What else is there to know?

[-=V12US=-]

Nuke, people just need something to whine about because losing in this game is so goddamn annoying. You've been trying to win for about 10 minutes, and then suddenly you die because you made the error to blindly storm at your oponent thinking he was an easy kill, but he wasn't.

Seriously, I doubt the whining will stop after 1.3. People will just find new stuff to whine about, wether it be lag, a piece of equipment or something else.

[Stakhanov]

There are 3 different DMing ways...
-sniping : there are thieves who always use broadheads against guards if they're from a sufficient distance. It's an effective way of killing guards , as a few arrows are enough if the guard doesn't dodge them. Generally the thief has the time to shoot 3 before the guard starts whacking him ; even then , the bow is superior to the sword and the thief still has the advantage. Rooves and Vents snipers can't be called DMers really , but it's always possible to use the bow in broad light and kill lonely guards (thieves using bow at ground level are generally dead)
There are few DMers exploiting this.
-swordthieving : playing with the wrong melee weapon as thief. Unlike swordblocking/virus method , it's actually unfair as the thief can use crack or flashbomb to disable the guard and have an easy kill. AI guards can be easily DMed , if the thief uses sword circlestrafing.
Mostly noobs use theses lame tactics... yet they're temptating when you have your sword ready and the guard is using xbow...
-circlestrafing/leaning BJwhoring : manage to KO guards from any side.
Circlestrafing is just running in circles (duh) using strafe to reach the back of the guard , both avoiding his swinging sword and being in position to BJ him.
Circlestrafer may take advantage of the lag , use speed or flashbomb. They also KO any AI guard if experienced at it , because of the AI reacting time.
Note that circlestrafing in 100% dark places is a legitimate tactic against shadowslashers.
Leaning KO... controversial point : is used to get side BJs when FACING the guard. Even if he has his back on a corner , he can still be BJed. Lag helps much.

[Lurox]

Hmm... Sniping is not really "dm'ing". Only if abused.

What you're saying there, Stakhanov, is that thieves have absolutely no way to defend themselves except to do a WTF blackjack?

[Stakhanov]

What you're saying there, Stakhanov, is that thieves have absolutely no way to defend themselves except to do a WTF blackjack?

I don't think thieves should try to defend themselves. Occasionally on bright maps like Aquatone I try to BJ passing guards before fleeing ; but I found that it's always safer to run like hell after flashing a guard instead of trying to BJ him. Thieves are supposed to flee and hide... this game is not called "baitery" :?

[LaughingRat]

this game is not called "baitery" :?

No, it's called "Thievery". That means taking that which is not legally yours. There are many different paths to that end INCLUDING eliminating those who stand between you and your target.

Don't get hung up on the notion that the ONLY way to steal something is to sneak it out. You're confusing the means with the end.

[Nuclear]

so to be like virus and use a sword, is ok then? Aslong as your not lame and start throwing flash bombs n stuff?

And starkhov says you cant call it DMing when sniping in vents and from rooftops.

So thats ok aswell?

[Stakhanov]

Guards generally don't like sword thieves. The best thing when you're a guard is that when you're spotting a thief , he has to flee unless he's in a wide , dark area (that you can scan with flares or tag bolts) and slash him if he doesn't flee fast enough... If you're vigilant , thieves should have a very hard time BJing you.
Yet online we see DMers who still think they're equals to guards , so they aren't afraid of them really. It's frustrating for the guards , who's main pleasure is to "catch" thieves (using tag/parabolts caltrops ect) and slash them freely as they become defenseless at close range. Guard have to fear thieves only in shadowy areas where they can be BJed from anywhere at any time , or receive nasty arrows.
It's all about immersion here. Each team tries to take ennemies by surprise using its own methods , be it whistlers or catfalls... There are no fights in Thievery , there are chases and harrassing. The game is supposed to be realistic to a degree , and nowhere you would see a weak thief charging a big armored guard with big weapons. Neither this guard jumping in the dark and swinging his heavy mace everywhere...

[Mad_Gerbil]

Nuclear:

It is okay to use any non-cheating strategy you want.

You just need to recognize most people realize the BJ and the thief bow are way overpowered so when you use that imbalance on all of the AI you won't get any respect because it requires no skill.

Sure, taking out 8 AI is a good quick way to win, but with the current ruleset it really isn't a challenge. Anti-Dm'ers wonder why anyone would log into an online game if all they wanna do is waste AI. That can be done with no lag on your system by starting your own private game.

DM'ers ruin the game for two types of players:
1) Guards don't like it because they typically get only one life since the AI is slaughtered by archers safely tucked away on massive dark rooftops.

2) Ghost Thieves don't like it because DM'ers leave nothing for them to ghost past OR they waste thief lives.

[LeatherMan]

so to be like virus and use a sword, is ok then? Aslong as your not lame and start throwing flash bombs n stuff?

And starkhov says you cant call it DMing when sniping in vents and from rooftops.

So thats ok aswell?

Using the sword or blackjack in combination with other items is a perfectly legitimate playstyle. Guards have more lives available, have the time-limit advantage** (if time expires, guards win), and get more startup loot to start the game.

The "ultimate" goal for thieves is to win by objective/s, and those that use these "DMing" techniques to win by eliminating all guards are considered lame by those on the losing team. Who really gives a fsck how you win? The goal is to win, so do it however you wish.

I have gotten sick of some players telling everyone else how to play the game, though I have no problems with suggestions. If anyone wishes to "ghost thieve", go for it. If anyone wants to force others to "ghost thieve" then start your own server and have fun policing the games to ensure "purity". I don't care either way as I am just as sick of the whiners as I ever was of the DMers.

For those interested, I have no limits on gameplay on my server (save cheating). There are many playstyles used by various players, from "ghost thieves" to "sword thieves" :swordthi:, from guards who don't use firebolts to "firebolt spammers", and I have no problem with any of these styles.


** The time-limit advantage is reduced with excessive time limits (this is, of course, relative to the skill of the players). I have no problem with servers who use extended time limits (more than the default 20 minutes) personally, though some players do.

[Biohazard]

I don't have a problem with people that DM. I think my biggest complaint is the ease of a KO with a BJ, even when it appears the Thief is in front of you.

As for me, I'm not going to whine or complain. I'm just going to sit around and wait for the dev team to fix what they want in the areas of the game they want in the 1.3 patch.

[The_Dan]

Nuclear, my best advice I can give is:

"If you don't mind taking it, feel free to give it out"

I'm DM-crazy & so I've got no objections to people DM-ing me.

It's a free world & people are in no position to tell you not to DM, when they always have the option to go play DM themselves.

Hope to see you on Mogs, Nuclear. I prefer guarding against DM thieves, keeps me on my toes. :wink:

(& I know you're not gonna complain about me when I DM, which is one less headache)

[The_Dan]

Oh, one more thing...

so to be like virus and use a sword, is ok then? Aslong as your not lame and start throwing flash bombs n stuff?

And starkhov says you cant call it DMing when sniping in vents and from rooftops.

So thats ok aswell?

Whats lame about flashbombs? If you can produce a flashbomb-DM playing style that works, then more power to you

I always seem to get slashed whenever I take on a blinded guard in melee (ie. Blackjack, I don't buy a sword) , you'd prolly be better off sniping a blinded guard.