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We will never win in Iraq.

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  • We will never win in Iraq.

    I've been thinking about Fallujah.

    The deaths don't bother me much because I guess I always suspected that there would be a lot of deaths and that this process would be long and drawn out. The treatment of the bodies afterwards is merely a footnote, IMHO.

    What bothers me is the hoard of people rejoicing that these men who were guarding a food convoy were slaughtered and killed. Many of the celebrants were children. Apparently there wasn't any opposition to the abuse of the bodies and their eventual perch up on the bridge.

    Children.

    I don't think we'll win in Iraq anymore.
    Not because we don't have the power, but because we won't use it.

    For example, the entire citizenry of Fallujah should be rounded up and executed. Every last man, woman, and child. Same should immediately happen in Tikrit. It sounds barbaric because it is, but it's the only way to win. The cost of killing a single American needs to be so high that they have nightmares about accidently doing it.

    I'm not saying we should do that, but that is the only way to win, IMHO.

    How did the USA beat back the Indians? We slaughtered them like cows.
    How did the USA beat Japan? We slaughtered them like cows.
    How did the Allies beat Germany? Slaughtered them like cows.
    How is any war truly won? Takes a whole lot of slaughtering like cows.

    We've been conned into the idea of a quick and painless war as if merely having soldiers in the street meant that we'd actually conquered the people. I know it sounds cruel, I don't mean to sound that way, but the only way you win is by extermination --- complete and total extermination.

    This is why war is a serious business.

    Take a quick look at any place on the globe where one side didn't completely wipe out the other side and you'll see two ethnic groups continuing a war that was begun about a billion years ago and one that will go on for another billion years because one side isn't strong enough to wipe out the other side entirely. You and I both know that the Israel/Palestine thing won't be over until there isn't a single Jew in the middle east OR there isn't a single man anywhere that will stand up and say, "Hi, I'm a Palestinian".

    So I'm coming around on the issue.

    We don't have the moral ground to wipe out about 10 million Iraqis --- which is to say, we don't have a good enough reason to be at war yet. When we have the 'guts' to take out 10 million Iraqis then we'll have what it takes to win in Iraq. Until then, we are just wasting out time.

    As long as we aren't mad enought to drop a nuke on 'Nagisaki' (so to speak) then we ain't mad enough to win.

    (Guys, I'm so DAMN sick and tired of SHIT in the middle east. I wish we'd get lock, stock, and barrel out of there. I no longer care what happens to Israel either. I'm so sick of dealing with these animals -- they don't deserve freedom, frankly, Saddam is too good for them.)
    "A gerbil is a rodent, wretched creature and quite possibly represents yourself there unclean vile obsolete weak and live happily in there and others filth, they have caused plague and death to humans and nearly wiped us out" - industrialism

  • #2
    Finally you are seeing my POV...
    Genius is a blink before a moment of insanity.
    "Dream is Destiny"
    Waking Life

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    • #3
      Ok Mg, I see your point, but I think that at this stadge it might do more harm than good.
      A mass arising of all the citizen masses of Iraq against the troops in Iraq is a foreseeable consequence of lashing out. Remember at this stadge you've got the majority of the people on your side, its a minority group that is doing all the killing.

      Also the people of a country are always more inclined to side with a local, rather than a foreign power. 'Invasions' in general or an act such as you are referring to (ie. Slaughter) has in the past created unifying forces within countries. For example Russia's war against Afghanistan and even Vietnam to a certain extent. Or the incidents in Poland and Eastern Europe towards the end of the Cold War. And in terms of oppressison as a means of control, it didn't work for the Soviets did it? It eventually backfired on them.
      Although I hate to admit it, the current plan of trying to stabilise Iraq and create government, rat out the groups responsible for the bombings and restore peace. Is probably the most intelligent plan, although In my opinion they should not have got involved in the first place, at least in the manner which they did. Also at the moment they are rushing the process because they are loosing votes back at home. If they weren't prepare for losses, Bush should have thought about that before hand. Ultimately the big loser will be Iraq, because when the US leave it will be a fuked up country with a weak democratic government, ripe for a popular cout d'etat or something like that.
      It took something like 30years to create the Australian constitution and the US plans to make Iraq's in about 6 months.
      .: Daymaster - Mockers Thievery Guild :.

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      • #4
        To me, its not a POV, its reality. There is no way to win there unless we do
        WHATEVER it takes. This may not be politically correct but I tend to think the
        same way. After 9/11, my idea was to find out where al queda was hiding
        (afghanistan as it turns out) and Nuke them into oblivion.
        Make terrorism so costly that they will think twice about doing it.

        WW2, Japan attacks the U.S. our response? The one it was determined would
        save lives in the long run. Nuked Japan.
        That was the only time the U.S. was ever attacked on that scale prior to
        9/11. Noone dared attack us on our soil for 40 some years.

        Hey its an extreme response but it was an extreme attack on us.

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        • #5
          Originally posted by Mad_Gerbil
          The cost of killing a single American needs to be so high that they have nightmares about accidently doing it.
          Now that doesn't sound very fair does it?
          <<----Brookhaven S3---->>

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          • #6
            It isn't just Iraq.

            There is something about civilization and the Arab world that just doesn't jive. I mean, they are still a very tribal people -- to the point that when a government takes a nose dive over there you have 2,000 year old feuds break out all over again. Oh sure, we can hold them apart but as soon as all the foreigners leave the old battles start right where they left off.

            It seems to me (in the sanitized version of history) that everyone in the US had a common vision. Didn't matter who you were, you wanted freedom under a United States. You can work with that.

            It seems (and I speak with some ignorance here) that the Arab world doesn't want unity as much as each tribe works to dominate all the other tribes. As soon as one tribe gets into power, *blamo*, they immediately begin to slaughter everyone else.

            What that means is the anti-Saddam tribes only want us over there long enough to push Saddam's people into a hole in the ground so they can rise to the top. Face it, the Kurds would wipe out everyone else if they could. We are just helping one tribe to beat another with none of them wanting to work with each other.

            I don't wanna see this crap for the rest of my life.
            I say we get EVERYTHING out of the middle east and make it against the law to cover the region so I don't have to see it on the news. Their hatred is just spreading to us.
            "A gerbil is a rodent, wretched creature and quite possibly represents yourself there unclean vile obsolete weak and live happily in there and others filth, they have caused plague and death to humans and nearly wiped us out" - industrialism

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            • #7
              If you take a good course in handgun use, they'll teach you this:

              1. Never draw your weapon unless you're prepared to fire it.
              2. Never fire your weapon, unless you're prepared to kill someone.

              Metaphorically speaking, we were OK with 1., but not with 2. when we went into Iraq.

              And now you know why I've been against it all along. It was a waste of money and lives, for something we couldn't win, and even if we could, it would have netted us nothing.

              You can not GIVE a people their freedom. A people has to be in the mindset to WANT their freedom first. When they are, they'll take it, and nothing can stop them. Until that time, any attempt to free them will only result in the liberator becoming the new oppressor (either real or perceived), or in a new oppressor arising out of the recently "liberated". It's inevitable, because the people are still in the mindset of the oppressed.

              [EDIT] I see in the time I was posting, you came to much the same conclusion I did. I just applied it more generally.

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              • #8
                Originally posted by Child of Karras
                Originally posted by Mad_Gerbil
                The cost of killing a single American needs to be so high that they have nightmares about accidently doing it.
                Now that doesn't sound very fair does it?
                If ya wanna win, fairness has to take a back seat.

                You think talking 15 year old girls into strapping a bomb to their chests and stepping on to a school bus is fair? You think dive bombing a plane into the WTC is fair? Fair and war have nothing to do with each other.

                Either fight it like a war, or get out.
                War means 10 million Iraqis dead.

                If you cannot do that, get out.
                "A gerbil is a rodent, wretched creature and quite possibly represents yourself there unclean vile obsolete weak and live happily in there and others filth, they have caused plague and death to humans and nearly wiped us out" - industrialism

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by LaughingRat
                  If you take a good course in handgun use, they'll teach you this:

                  1. Never draw your weapon unless you're prepared to fire it.
                  2. Never fire your weapon, unless you're prepared to kill someone.

                  Metaphorically speaking, we were OK with 1., but not with 2. when we went into Iraq.

                  And now you know why I've been against it all along. It was a waste of money and lives, for something we couldn't win, and even if we could, it would have netted us nothing.

                  You can not GIVE a people their freedom. A people has to be in the mindset to WANT their freedom first. When they are, they'll take it, and nothing can stop them. Until that time, any attempt to free them will only result in the liberator becoming the new oppressor (either real or perceived), or in a new oppressor arising out of the recently "liberated". It's inevitable, because the people are still in the mindset of the oppressed.

                  [EDIT] I see in the time I was posting, you came to much the same conclusion I did. I just applied it more generally.
                  I hate to admit it, but I have to say LR is right here.

                  *ouch*

                  *oh dear ...*

                  *ouch*

                  My only reservation is some vague feeling of duty, or perhaps a pro-active step to protect our country but if we aren't willing to go all the way (genocide) then we are just making things worse.
                  "A gerbil is a rodent, wretched creature and quite possibly represents yourself there unclean vile obsolete weak and live happily in there and others filth, they have caused plague and death to humans and nearly wiped us out" - industrialism

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Mad_Gerbil
                    I hate to admit it, but I have to say LR is right here.
                    *near orgasmic expression crosses face*

                    Ahhh.... That felt good.

                    Say it again!

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      LOL!

                      *slips into rant mode*

                      Oh LR, don't act like you felt this way all along.
                      You just hate anything Bush does because you are a Democrat fanboi. Now you are just jumping on the bandwagon with lies and distortions that mask your.... um... stupid ivory tower.... arrogant bas... um... becuase all along......

                      .....

                      ..oh hang it.

                      *waves a little LR for Prez flag.*
                      "A gerbil is a rodent, wretched creature and quite possibly represents yourself there unclean vile obsolete weak and live happily in there and others filth, they have caused plague and death to humans and nearly wiped us out" - industrialism

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                      • #12
                        Ha ha! April Fools everyone! Iraq doesn't even exist!

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                        • #13
                          Oh thank god, I knew it was just a bad dream, made for TV movie about Irag.

                          We can all talk about these events till we are blue in the face and 18 pages long, the shit will still continue. I give up.

                          When LR runs for Prez, just then, maybe my vote may actually be worthy.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by !MegaDude!
                            Ha ha! April Fools everyone! Iraq doesn't even exist!
                            I wish...

                            I'm not even know if I wanna touch this again but...

                            Originally posted by MadGerbil
                            It seems (and I speak with some ignorance here) that the Arab world doesn't want unity as much as each tribe works to dominate all the other tribes. As soon as one tribe gets into power, *blamo*, they immediately begin to slaughter everyone else.
                            Ture. But do what you suggest and pretty soon the entire Arab world will unity, unite in Hatred of the Western World and America. That is what Osama and his mates have been trying to do and that is why your government fears them, as much as the damage that these guys are capable of.

                            The Western World has been interfering with the Arabs for hundreds of years, getting involved in what they see as 'their' affairs and killing alot of their people, without really solving anything. Often the motivation has been in America's own interest and in the pursuit of resources, strategic advantage and power. The result is a long festering and fostered hatred of America and the West in general. Although its brutal, THAT is the reason i think we have terrorists. Their hatred is unreasonable, their acts monsterous, yes. However the hatred exists for a reason. :|
                            .: Daymaster - Mockers Thievery Guild :.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by BrokenArts
                              When LR runs for Prez, just then, maybe my vote may actually be worthy.
                              Wow, I'm really flattered.

                              Remember, LaughingRat in '06!!

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