Why trying to team play SUCKS.

[-=V12US=-]

[rant]

Okay, Gerbil. You claimed this game needed teamplay? Tell the idiots over at mogs.

We were with four guards on DE, since noone suggested a plan yet, I told everyone to bring all the ai and traps to bookhouse.

...

no replies.

So once again, I told everyone to bring all ai to bookhouse.

...

Once again... no replies.

So I figured everyone was allready busy gathering the ai...

Nope, everyone was just scaling the roofs and patrolling random locations, not even guarding the slightest bit of objectives... Figures I got a little pissed, I mean, teamwork is one of the main requirements for guards to win.

So I start collecting AI myself, which was a long devious task, since all the ai were still scattered about the map. Luckily, TurdBurglar had understood the situation, and was helping me by then.

Then, suddenly, the book got taken...

IF WE HAD TEAMED UP AND GUARDED THAT BOOKHOUSE, THAT WOULDN'T HAVE HAPPENED! ARGH I WAS SO PISSED!

Since noone was guarding the houses either, they got the loot mere seconds later, and magically, everyone rushed at the exit.

Offcourse we had no chance. over 5 thief lives left, several guards sniped to death, some nice KO's by Joe, and the thieves exitted. Leaving a very pissed V12US behind...

------------------------------------------

And that isn't an isolated case. This frequently happens on Spiders as well.... as soon as the guards spawn, they rush off in to the dark, chasing shadows... :X

ANY HALFWITTED RETARD BENNIE GUARD KNOWS THAT THE APPARTMENTS ARE VITAL TO THE GUARDS SUCCES.

Yet noone deems it important enough to guard that area, and the only reason they come there, is because the chest is there... :X

Fine, so I get the AI myself, properly set them up and build myself some defences... but what happens, a mere 5 minutes later my formidable AI force has dwindled to one lonesome scared whimp standing somewhere in a corner trembling... and the human guards left promptly start whining about people KO'ing them all the time... AGH!

STICK TOGETHER DAMNIT, AND GET THOSE AI'S SO THEY CAN'T GET KO'D! SPIDERS IS NOT A MAP WHERE YOU CAN JUST ROAM AROUND! :X

------------------

No wonder noone wants to play guard, only very few people here have the right attitude to be able to play one correctly. While it is ok for people to whine about people that don't give a fuck about objectives and kill guards, it seemingly is okay for guards to just storm out of the house, all bloodlusted, shadowslashing around in every large shadow they can find while not minding the objectives at all.

I think these socalled "DM guards" are a disgrace to the thievery atmosphere, and they should be hated as much as "DM thieves" to promote proper guarding.

[/rant]

[Tisfulakistakagela]

I have been in your position many times virus and I dont like it. I like team work very much..but sometimes we have to learn to work alone. I know it pisses you off when you ask something and noone replies... it sucks... :cry:

[Kiech Bepho]

It's tough to team play on a server when people are just showing up 'whenever they can.' I agree that smart guarding and teamwork can go a long way in this game. But its not about the objectives, is it? Its about having fun. Not everyone is going to want to camp an area or go out to fetch the AI. I am not saying that those people are going to WIN, but they are just trying to have fun.

If you want to play a game where a team works together, than do so. Get a team together and decide what your strategy is, then go play. But when its chance of who will be on the server and who will not be, you can't expect everyone to want to follow your plan.

Kiech

[Yenzarill]

Eventually people will learn how to guard maps effectively. Any map is easily guarded if you have 4+ guards working together with communication happening.

But really, you are a guard, so why not do so... rather self-explanatory.

[Katra]

Teaming as thieves may not always be a good thing either...*dreams back to funny situation* Yesterday me and mOdEtWo were thieving in grange we had the last two lives and had aquired all of the loot. We strangely decide to meet at the dark hallway that leads to the kitchen. little did we know, a stray mine was inadvertently placed in the perfect spot! right as were were about to leave via the sewers, the mine went BOOM killing both me and mOdEtWo thats like the ultimate mine!
Also as a guard, i personally am not a camping guard. I like to hunt, whether it be in vents, hallways or whatever. the only maps that camping and such are imperative are the aforementioned maps DE and Spiders. I like to leave the camping guards to do whatever they like with the AI. I like them getting KOed because then it totally gives away the stupid thief who knocked him out away! thats the sole reason that makes ghosting easier. also the AI are just too damn stupid even on genius.

[Mad_Gerbil]

Well Virus, lack of team work dooms the guards as well.
I told you this was the case, and it IS frustrating.

Our point of contention is this: Why do the theives get +20 minutes to compensate for lack of teamwork while the guards don't get any "handicaps" to deal with lack of teamwork?

To put it another way, shouldn't there be -20 (minus 20) minute modifier to a map if the guards fail to act as a team just like there is a +20 minute modifier for thieves that don't act as a team?

I say if a team doesn't act like a team they should loose.
No handicaps.
No bonus.
Just a another loss.

Ironically enough, we've found (RLF/Wraiths) that in a team environment with pure ghosting that the default time works very well (Bill might argue for another 5 minutes). The time IS sufficienct for solid team play, even with some mistakes.

I'm against non-team playing thieves (half of which are BJ whores) getting the extra 20 minutes just so they can play sloppy and still have a chance at winning. I feel the same way for the guards.

[MrEricSir]

I think the main problem with DE is that the guards always run around in the dark like idiots, then whine about getting KOed. WTF? If you're a guard, you should actually guard stuff, shouldn't you? I've never been able to figure out why guards don't guard the houses on DE.

One change I'd like to see on that map is to have the AI in the houses instead of walking around outside.

[OHHDEAR]

Eric, because if you even TRY to leave a house to get to the guard house, or get from Guest to Loki's, you stand a higher than necessary chance of getting KOed (WHICH IS WHY EVERYONE STINKING CAMPS THE BOOK!). It is hard to simply get to the areas you should be guarding.

Let's return to the overused aphorism in an attempt to discredit it, shall we?

If your teammates aren't doing the teamwork thing, play on another server.

Heh heh heh.

[Mad_Gerbil]

I think the main problem with DE is that the guards always run around in the dark like idiots, then whine about getting KOed. WTF? If you're a guard, you should actually guard stuff, shouldn't you? I've never been able to figure out why guards don't guard the houses on DE.

One change I'd like to see on that map is to have the AI in the houses instead of walking around outside.

With the loot bug, guarding loot isn't very productive.
Fortunately that will be fixed soon.

As for the book, I've not seen much success in guarding that thing. I should think about any thief could catwalk/invis/speed that thing out of there.

[Curunir]

I agree on people whining about getting BJed on maps when they are running around in the dark like idiots. If the guard runs into a dark shadow, then he knows he's risking getting BJed because a thief is there.

You can't enforce how people play, unless of course it's your server and you want to be a jerk.

I like to roam as a guard.
Remembers back: It was flats, and I was a guard roaming the streets. I paused in an inset doorway to type something, and a thief slowly walks right past me a stops right in front of my me. His side was to me. I quickly hit Enter, stopping my sentence in the middle, walk up behind the thief and slash the hell out of him. It was a great feeling. Sneaking up on a thief, heh.

I've seen a lot of maps where guards will work as a team and cover one main objective and still lose.
Remembers back again: It was DE. I was a thief in the rafters of the library. A guard had come up here to inspect and guard the rafters. He didn't know I was already there. I waited there just for about 5-10 minutes, literally, just thinking about what to do and evaluating my situation:

• 1) 1 human guard in rafters.
  2) 1 human guard and 1 AI standing directly next to book stand.
  3) 1 human guard standing in inset doorway.
  4) Caltrops and mines all over the dang floor around the book.

I decide on a plan and execute it: I slowly crawl to guard in rafters, lean and KO him. Guards on floor don't seem to notice. I walk over, mario KO the human guard next to the book with Bj ready, KO the AI without noticing I'm there. The other human guard runs at me and I circle-strafe KO him. No more caltrops or mines on the floor because those guards are gone. I grab the book. Destroy chest. I get ready to shoot my vine, and a human guard runs in after me. I miss my vine arrow because my heart is pounding so bloody hard and my nerves are throught the roof. I KO the gaurd. I'm stuck in the library. I ask someone to come rescue me with a vine. Someone says they'll be there in a second. No other guard came. I guess the figured I was long gone by now, and they moved on to guard loot. The thief shoots the vine so I can escape. What happens? I lag the dang jump and fall to my death. The other thief tries to go down the vine to recover book and my loot, what happens, he falls to his death. I only got one life that map. I didn't get a chance to go back and get the book.

The moral of this story: people get darn lucky sometimes. I know I did, even if I did die an unfortunate death. Having all the guards on one obect isn't always the best way to win a map. Yes, it's very smart to have some guards camping, but the quickest and quite often most effective way to kill the thieves is to surprise them, make them mess up, make a mistake. Find them. Kill them.

[Slappy]

I agree with V12US (and Gerbil).. but this isn't really any different than any other "team" game on the internet. Play CS or Battlefield 1942 and see how much teamwork there isn't in those "team games".

Guards need teamwork to win in TUT. Thieves do not. One good thief can complete most of the objectives, while it would take several guards working together to stop him (ie, CrouchingDork on Spider - he always gets the grail within a minute or 2). Playing a guard on public servers is often frustrating because almost everyone wants to be John Wayne or Rambo and go kill the thieves all by themselves.

More times than I could count, the guy with the chest doesn't drop it - he just goes hunting thieves in dark places and loses the chest. I hate these morons.
Very few people have the patience to guard an objective for the whole round; so you may think you have people working as a team, but in 5 minutes, they've all abandoned their posts to go hunt thieves (in the dark, and then they get KO'ed, and then spawn in your well-placed AI and go get him KO'ed too).

There are very few people I consider to be trustworthy teammates as a guard - most are in the RLF, perhaps unsurprisingly. When I play on public servers, I expect my teammates to not be helpful to the team. My expectations are often fulfilled. Sometimes I am surprised by someone who will help the team, even if it means camping a spot where there are currently no thieves.

This is long enough already, but I wanted to talk about DE. I think guarding the book is futile. I think the best DE defense is 2+ human guards in the guest house, and at least 1 in Loki's. Guard the loot - you CAN keep the thieves out of the houses, and you'll win. Fri and I often keep the guest house loot untouched. In the few cases where we have another team player, we get him to guard Loki's, and the thieves have a very difficult time. There is no reason to go outside except to travel from one house to another (or to the guardhouse and back). You want to hunt? Fine, hunt the hallways of either house, NOT outside in the dark.

[-=V12US=-]

Eventhough guarding the book on DE might be a different way than most guards do, it is in no way an inferior way.

When you use a teammate to cooperate with you, you can place 'floating whistlers' underneath the rafters. Greatly reducing the effectiveness of sneaking in, and catfall/invis the book. It isn't the objective surroundings that make an objective hard to get (well, maybe partly), but it is mostly the experience and skill of the thieves that decide wether the objective can be retrieved or not... remember, there is allways a way.

I remember some time ago, back when I was in CTG, people were getting ready for the ToB vs. CTG match, and one of the maps played was korman. So I suggested the guards should try to defend the crypt ruby instead of the rectory ruby, as a surprise for the ToB thieves, who had no experience in retrieving the ruby from a guarded crypt... this idea was however dissmissed, because the CTG guards had little experience in guarding the crypt as well...
But lately, I have seen several people who have adopted my idea, and decide to guard the crypt instead of the rectory, often with great, perhaps in some cases even greater succes than the oldshool guards that stick to the rectory...

As a final word, I'd like to admit that since yesterday, my respect for the RLF has gone up alot. They're great teamplayers. And about the rest? I think that the community is currently overflowing with new members, and while most of these are great additions, there are some who are only interested in TUT the game, and not the community that's behind it. I'd like to see this place come together again as one big family, so I can join a server again and 'personally' know every player in it.

[Machine]

My respect for the RLF has increased massivly since being a part of it (abiet the Ghosting section of the team) They actively seek out new and more effective ways to guard any map. Give them time and they'll be a force to be reckoned with on ANY map.

As for for Virus, I was there in that match where you got mad, I ghost-stole the book that game. You are right in your statements, the guards where VERY shabby, which was the reason why I was attempting to stay on the same team as the experianced players whom I am familer with, me Old_Joe and Brody all got our objectives quickly and effecently, met on the roof overlooking the exit and exited in sync (even tho there was no-one guarding the exit)

If I were you virus I'd try to stick with team players, then TOTALLY WASTE the non-team players. (Remembers our Breakout match where we blocked up the exits with boxes). They'll learn. :twisted:

[-=V12US=-]

My respect for the RLF has increased massivly since being a part of it (abiet the Ghosting section of the team) They actively seek out new and more effective ways to guard any map. Give them time and they'll be a force to be reckoned with on ANY map.

As for for Virus, I was there in that match where you got mad, I ghost-stole the book that game. You are right in your statements, the guards where VERY shabby, which was the reason why I was attempting to stay on the same team as the experianced players whom I am familer with, me Old_Joe and Brody all got our objectives quickly and effecently, met on the roof overlooking the exit and exited in sync (even tho there was no-one guarding the exit)

If I were you virus I'd try to stick with team players, then TOTALLY WASTE the non-team players. (Remembers our Breakout match where we blocked up the exits with boxes). They'll learn. :twisted:

Haha, jeah that match was a blast! The thieves never managed to get through the doors thanks to one mad firespamming rodent ( ), save for Old Joe, who managed to sneak past Mad Gerbil near the end, and then he stumbled on our cleverly placed blockades, which gave the guards enough time to get to him and kill him.

I made screenshots!

http://members.lycos.nl/v12us/Thieveryblockade1.jpg

http://members.lycos.nl/v12us/Thieveryblockade2.jpg

Edit: URL'ed screenshots because of screenstretching

[Mad_Gerbil]

Virus:

That game rocked.

The barricade you guys built caused Joe to panic, which is something I've never seen him do in a game before. That was funny as a loadout of firebolts.

One small correction though, I didn't buy any firebolts that game.
I don't know who did the firespamming but all I had were tags and parabolts!

ops: