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Hard numbers

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  • Hard numbers


    I'm presenting some statistics i've been writing down lately. I won't make any comment, i just want to present facts. It's up to each one what to think from this. Also, i notice some maps have way too little data from them for it to be considered representative (i hardly would consider representative anything under 10-12 matches, but i will still write them all down).

    Data gathering started on 25-Jan-2003 until to 4-Feb-2003
    - 85% of the games played in Mog's server. The rest in Crackaz.
    - All of the games with balanced teams on and 3 players per team minumum.
    - All public games (No clan-only matches).
    - Several games recorded on a straight, with the same players switching teams (as to eliminate the factor of uneven team skill).
    - Playing time from 00:00 GMT to 05:00 GMT (usually). Many people from the forums playing that time, not unknown people or someone who wouldn't know how to play.
    - Only 3 games won by thieves in the last 10 minutes of play (Mog)
    - Only 5 games won by thieves with more than double surviving thieves than guards.

    Korman Thieves win 4-6 Guards win
    Nostalgia Thieves win 3-6 Guards win
    SkelstonHead Thieves win 1-6 Guards win
    Spider Thieves win 4-3 Guards win
    Theatre Thieves win 3-4 Guards win
    Gerome Thieves win 0-6 Guards win
    Grange Thieves win 3-5 Guards win
    Flats Thieves win 7-4 Guards win
    Folly Thieves win 4-4 Guards win
    Burgeois Thieves win 2-6 Guards win
    Aquatone Thieves win 1-8 Guards win
    Darkened Enlightment Thieves win 2-2 Guards win
    Asylum Thieves win 2-5 Guards win
    Breakout Thieves win 2-5 Guards win

    Total thieves win: 38
    Total guards win: 70

  • #2
    cool thx


    • #3
      OMG!! Thieves are clearly overpowered!!

      Nerf them harder!!!


      • #4
        Gerome definatly needs tweaking.
        (AKA Dresden)
        Despite all my rage, I am still just a dwarf in a cage.


        • #5
          Nice job Mr. K!

          Seems pretty balanced from these #'s from a guards point of view . Would be really hard to get a controled # for a good test though. Although I play both guard and thief on public servers I'm way better at a guard. For other people they play a thief way better then a guard.

          But on some of these maps I'm supprise at the #'s.

          Breakout is a huge disappointment. When I play a thief I have a 90% success record on that map, and I'm not even a good thief.

          SkelstonHead is more luck of the draw to me. If the map spawns close to the thieves, thieves win. If not it will be harder for them to win.

          Folly is a suprise also. Thieves really should own this map.


          • #6
            The few times I've played a thief on a public server I am shocked at the total lack of teamwork. There is almost NO communication from theives on who is doing what and I often find 2-3 thieves trying to work the same area.

            I believe thieves are loosing not because of lack of skill or lack of thief abilities, but because they refuse to work as a team, whereas, the guards are continually messaging each other and coordinating positions.

            The only reason thieves do win at all is because of BJ whoredom. In otherwords, a couple of BJ whores acting as lone wolves manage to kill enough guards to make horribly sloppy and uncoordinated play capable of pulling off a coup.

            This is why I'll continue to support the NERF of the BJ because play that sloppy should never translate into a win.

            I look forward to thieves being forced to work as a team OR being forced to endure loss after loss after loss until they get sick enough of it to evolve. Maybe 1.3 will force some neandrathals out of the game thereby leaving those behind who come to thievery to do something brillant instead of just exploiting something brain dead and easy.

            I'd like to cite an example from just the other day:

            I was playing a thief on DE and GreatSnafu was guarding with this typically entourage of 3 AI. I was trying very hard to get into Loki's house but the moment a door creaked or a lock was picked GreatSnafu was all over me. Of course, the thieves could of BJ the hell out of everything until GS was the only player left and then looted the map but that isn't brilliant and it takes next to no skill. INSTEAD I sent Sneaksy a message (like the first thief comminque in the game) to open the top door of the house and fire in two arrows and run like mad. When he did that the AI went nuts and GS followed them while I looted the first floor of Loki's.

            I'm convinced that with the current ruleset a coordinated thief team could tear a guard team a new corn hole but we never see anything approaching a coordinated attack on the public servers.

            The thief losses are all they deserve right now, and the few wins they have are rarely deserved.

            Yeah, that will piss some people off.
            Hopefully they'll get mad enough to start using teamwork.
            The guards are getting good enough where BJ whoredom isn't as effective as it used to be.

            Evolve already.
            "A gerbil is a rodent, wretched creature and quite possibly represents yourself there unclean vile obsolete weak and live happily in there and others filth, they have caused plague and death to humans and nearly wiped us out" - industrialism


            • #7
              Mr. K, will you continue your recordkeeping any further? I agree that three matches on a map are not representative. Thank you so much for noting these statistics; much of the data surprised me a lot. If you do update, please edit the original post.

              I agree with LaughingRat. Nerf us thieves harder! Gimmie a challenge! Bring it on!

              I would like to dedicate ThieveryUT Beta 1.3 to Mad Gerbil.
              "Garlisk's got a lov-el-y bunch of coconuts."


              • #8
                As i said, these numbers have to be taken with a grain of salt, numbers for particular maps are orientative but by no means abundant enough to make judgements written in stone. I will continue to gather and update the list every week and when 1.3 comes out (being WHEN the key word ) we'll see the differences.

                As it is now, i feel the game is pretty balanced towards guards (almost twice as many wins as thieves?!), but i also feel this is because of mapping issues and not game mechanics. Maps with objectives/choke points tend to be extremely unbalanced.


                • #9
                  Gerbil, I know this is going to sound foolish, but playing as a thief for me means that I act as a loner... I hate being around other thieves because they are so unpredictable... add to that that everyone has his or her own playstyle, while guards generally have only one, and you'll be trying to ghost while your teammate gives your position away by KO'ing, or vice versa.

                  I change my headings as well fairly often, and seeing as I try to be as fast as possible (I'm a ninja, not a thief) most thieves don't keep up.

                  Thieves just aren't made to teamplay like guards. Two thieves in one area equals two times the chance of getting detected.


                  • #10
                    And remember that allthough the BJ might get changed, the thieves will get a better invisibility system. Which might balance things up a lot, since invisibilty is a thief's best friend... and not the BJ, as some guards think.


                    • #11
                      Ay, so true...
                      Two thieves working together need to know each other fairly well, like guildmates or something. Becuase if you have no idea what your "partner" is going to do, you're probably gonna mess it up! And you can't spend five minutes explaining your plan to the other players, especially if it depends on speed.
                      While I don't expect 1.3 to change this, after all that would make it pretty unbalanced in matches and so on, it is an explanation.


                      • #12
                        Addressing your post regarding thieves's lack of teamwork, i have to say that the games were played with the same groups of people switching teams. I refuse to belive that Snafu, Omega, Daniel, Chainsaws or any other player here teamworks as a guard and suddenly becomes unable to speak as a thief. I personally chat and plan as much as a guard as a thief, and the feedback i get from other thieves about their gameplay is usually good enough for me.

                        Furthermore, thieves travelling toghether is usually a bad idea, as the chances of being discovered are not just twice, but more than twice as much as if you go alone.

                        Teamplay for thieves <> sticking toghether, as it usually happens with guards.

                        The thief losses are all they deserve right now, and the few wins they have are rarely deserved.
                        That's a very harsh thing to say. There are many great players out there. I find this generalization out of place.

                        As you said, you rarely play thief, so you might be getting a partial look into the thieving game, just as much as i don't know the game results outside my normal playing times.

                        And before anybody says anything, i play 60% guard 40% thief. I try to go 50/50, but there are a couple of maps i always guard, so that unevens it a bit.


                        • #13
                          Spider Thieves win 4-3 Guards win


                          Oh, and the results are there, don't start arguing with facts. Like it or not, that's how it is, REGARDLESS of how it gets that way.
                          The only constant is change.
                          (And I wouldn't have it any other way.)


                          • #14
                            This is exactly what I would have expected, and I don't see the problem with it. Given that around half the people I see on public servers are newer players -- and that most of them only want to play as thieves -- and that it is incredibly rare for thieves to work together on public servers, I expect them to lose the majority of the time. This doesn't mean the game is terribly unbalanced, it's just the nature of public servers.
                            Nearly all men can stand adversity -- if you want to test a man’s character, give him power.


                            • #15
                              Also note that teamwork does not require thieves to be close to one another.
                              Nearly all men can stand adversity -- if you want to test a man’s character, give him power.