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  • #31
    Originally posted by mOdEtWo
    Originally posted by -=V12US=-
    Euh, why exactly? Can't the guilds take care of this themselves?
    What if some of the TuF's was a part of the RLF, and you were supposed to play a turfwar match against them, then they would know every detail about your 'plans', wouldn't they?
    Once again, it's a game. Most strategies on every map will become public knowledge anyway, once some people find out someone uses a strategy that works, it will allready be used (and countered) by other people.

    And also, most matches consist purely of teamwork, and theres no counter to that.

    Comment


    • #32
      But Virus has an extremely good point as I pointed out in my intial post about people 'calling the shots' in the commuinity. It seems that CTG say jump and we all say how high? I hate to go back to it but it happened with frantic.

      OK, so if what I have done has become public, why not disclose who participated in this investigation?

      ) If you are in Turfwars the RLF will not play your team until ALL players have had their IPs verified. If you are uncomfortable with that arrangement, then do not play in the Turfwars against the RLF
      Please stop refering to it as MY guild, it's not.
      ~TuF~

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by -=V12US=-
        Once again, it's a game. Most strategies on every map will become public knowledge anyway, once some people find out someone uses a strategy that works, it will allready be used (and countered) by other people.

        And also, most matches consist purely of teamwork, and theres no counter to that.
        Strategies become much less effective once they're known. They become public knowledge after they've been used once -- but on that first time, the opposing team has no clue, and new strategies can be very effective.
        Nearly all men can stand adversity -- if you want to test a man’s character, give him power.

        Comment


        • #34
          Originally posted by TheMachine
          OK, so if what I have done has become public, why not disclose who participated in this investigation?
          Myself, LR, and to a lesser extent Grank and Gerbil.
          Nearly all men can stand adversity -- if you want to test a man’s character, give him power.

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by -=V12US=-
            This thread is about the fact that I've been reluctant to play with CTG members for fear of being 'investigated'. The only reason I blame Grank and Laughingrat the most is because they are the guild leaders.
            Virus:
            I was the one who began the investigation into Frantic. After I spent hours watching him I brought his game to the attention of all server administrators. I was unable to describe what I was seeing at the time.

            ALL of the people involved at that point would NOT take my word for it. From the moment I brought the Frantic situation to their attention it took TWO WEEKS of observing for each other person involved to develop an opinion. While various members were observing Frantic, both LR and Grank were investigating the source of the cheat in question and testing it themselves.

            Finally, after watching HOURS of games and tons of debate over 1/2 dozen different observers reluctantly came to the conclusion he was cheating. I can say that they didn't want to believe it.

            Nobody else has been investigated in this way since that time, because frankly, nobody else has been as grossly obvious as Frantic. I've watched many players here after they pulled a lucky move and within minutes it became obvious that it was nothing more than a lucky move (or game, for that matter).

            If you wanna be pissed at somebody over Frantic, then you'd better take a hard look at Mad_Gerbil. Nobody PUSHED the investigation like I did and LaughingRat and Grank were very hesitant to jump on board.

            Those are the facts.
            "A gerbil is a rodent, wretched creature and quite possibly represents yourself there unclean vile obsolete weak and live happily in there and others filth, they have caused plague and death to humans and nearly wiped us out" - industrialism

            Comment


            • #36
              Originally posted by -=V12US=-
              Euh, why exactly? Can't the guilds take care of this themselves?
              Possibly not. Here's something amusing. I know of four guilds that have TuF members in them. One of those guilds is NOT CTG. I honestly have no idea if one of my own members is in TuF or not. It's not unreasonable to assume that other guilds may not know that they've been infiltrated.

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by TheMachine
                Please stop refering to it as MY guild, it's not.
                TuF, FAG, ToB, CTG.... I don't care WHAT guild we play. They must have their IPs verified first.

                I'd be happy to play TuF one day, when TuF is a guild composed of it's own unique members. This isn't an anti-TuF thing, it's an anti 'ringer' thing.
                "A gerbil is a rodent, wretched creature and quite possibly represents yourself there unclean vile obsolete weak and live happily in there and others filth, they have caused plague and death to humans and nearly wiped us out" - industrialism

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by -=V12US=-
                  Originally posted by mOdEtWo
                  Originally posted by -=V12US=-
                  Euh, why exactly? Can't the guilds take care of this themselves?
                  What if some of the TuF's was a part of the RLF, and you were supposed to play a turfwar match against them, then they would know every detail about your 'plans', wouldn't they?
                  Once again, it's a game. Most strategies on every map will become public knowledge anyway, once some people find out someone uses a strategy that works, it will allready be used (and countered) by other people.

                  And also, most matches consist purely of teamwork, and theres no counter to that.
                  I think there are several strategies for the same map. With several counters. If a team knows about another teams strategy in advance that makes for a easy counter. It's unfair and takes the fun out of the game.

                  I'd like to go on record as saying CTG does not consider itself the TUT police. We do happen to end up in the middle of a lot of things and hence get blamed for it. We get caught up in things for a few reasons. We have a frequently used server, we have several members. LR and I have no problems putting ourselves out here for critisism.

                  What is funny to me is that almost everytime there is a so called community crisis created by LR or CTG it almost ALWAYS includes other guilds/server admins. We get blamed for it though. We are the bad guys for it. I really do find that kinda funny.

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by Mad_Gerbil
                    Okay, a couple of points here:

                    1) About Cheating: Nobody has ever been banned for the 'lucky move' you described. People who get banned for that stuff do it 4 times per game ALL DAY LONG. I've done stuff like that before and didn't worry about it because anybody who watches me also knows I'll blow 500 flares and go whole games without finding a single thief. The only person who has been banned for cheating like you've described had over 40 hours of observation invested in busting him AND the observations were made by 1/2 dozen people in a myriad of games over two weeks.
                    I know stuff you don't.


                    2) I'm unclear as to how LR & Grank were to handle this nonsense. Are you guys upset that they checked people's IPs? Those IPs are the only way to verify people are who they say they are. Just recently a match was fubared in UT because a ringer was brought in.
                    I'm not upset they checked IP's, I'm upset they made it public knowledge. If CTG has a problem with TuF they should've resolved it by PM's, instead they banded together with other clans and started throwing mud.

                    How would you feel if your team was going up against the RLF and you thought Mad_Gerbil was thieving but in reality it was Frantic under an alias? Suddenly Mad_Geril has all the moves and you get your butt owned. How would you feel about that match? Would you congratulate the RLF on it's win or would you be pissed that I let a highly skilled thief outside of the team take the place of a thief who isn't sure how to hold a BJ?
                    I don't see the relevance to the current topic. The turfwar rules clearly say banned members cannot play, so it would be illegal.

                    Here's the standard match rules again.

                    Players
                    -The match will be either 3v3, 4v4, or 5v5, to be agreed upon beforehand by both guilds. In the event one of the chosen maps does not support that many players, the teams will be as full as possible with non-playing players spectating.
                    -The teams do not have to be constant from round to round.
                    -Rosters must be submitted to the opposing guild at least 3 days prior to the match. If the guild will not have the same team for all rounds, they must specify who will be playing each round.
                    -No players commonly banned from public servers (Frantic, Unstoppable, Hardee, etc) will be allowed to play. Any disputes regarding this will be worked out after rosters are submitted but before the match.
                    -There will be either one independent spectator, or one spectator representing each guild, to be agreed upon beforehand. Spectators must remain totally silent during matches, except to call a serious foul.
                    -All players for a guild will be members in good standing of that guild. Guild members may not alias as other members of that guild, and non-members of a guild in a match may not be brought in aliasing as a member of that guild. Violation of either of these rules forfeits the entire match.


                    Please point to me the part that says that Machine and TuF would not be able to play matches in turfwars? (Note that for general rules the turfwars text points to the standard match rules posted above).

                    3) If you are in Turfwars the RLF will not play your team until ALL players have had their IPs verified. If you are uncomfortable with that arrangement, then do not play in the Turfwars against the RLF.
                    Fair enough, but players should not be denied participation in the wars unless they are banned players, the people verifying the IP's (the owner of the server) should not say who is who, just that there are no illegal actions involved.

                    4) I appreciate Virus' viewpoint on things. It's not fun to have a game sullied in this way since we are all here just to have fun. However, the consequences of not being vigilant is a server full of cheats and ragers and matchs being more the result of spies, thrown games, and backstabbing than skill and teamwork.
                    I'm pretty sure that all guilds are there to have fun. None of the guilds currently in the turfwars would do something as low as rigging wars or spieing on others, because it'll be damn obvious to see wether a match was rigged.

                    And I too have been approached by Keepers and you know it, but never ever did they mention anything about spying or abusing classified guild information.

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by V12rs
                      I'm pretty sure that all guilds are there to have fun. None of the guilds currently in the turfwars would do something as low as rigging wars or spieing on others, because it'll be damn obvious to see wether a match was rigged.

                      And I too have been approached by Keepers and you know it, but never ever did they mention anything about spying or abusing classified guild information.
                      First of all, rigging a match is easier than you may think.

                      Second of all, with the testimony of the letter and situation, TUF had set the stage for doing something dishonorable. They may not have crossed the line, but they were walking it. This was going to cause a lot of distrust in guilds and among players eventually. Is it better that it came out now, when the damage can be repaired, or later?
                      Not really trying to put out an opinion here, only some points. I am not necessarily against "intelligence-gathering" as there are many "honest" ways of achiving that goal. But as many here are just out for 'a good time' and don't take the game as seriously as others do, don't they deserve at least the semblance of 'security'?

                      Kiech
                      Kiech

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Virus:

                        In case you missed it, TuF is free to participate in the turfwars when they are a guild composed of members who are not involved with other guilds.

                        The RLF will take on TuF any day of the week once their members are their members.

                        To my knowledge, no member of TuF has been banned nor have they done anything worthy of a ban.
                        "A gerbil is a rodent, wretched creature and quite possibly represents yourself there unclean vile obsolete weak and live happily in there and others filth, they have caused plague and death to humans and nearly wiped us out" - industrialism

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by -=V12US=-
                          Please point to me the part that says that Machine and TuF would not be able to play matches in turfwars? (Note that for general rules the turfwars text points to the standard match rules posted above).
                          I wrote the standard rules, and intentionally worded it to allow TuF to match other guilds. At the time, I wasn't thinking of the potential consequences of it. I also wrote it with the assumption that players were only in one guild, which I don't think is an unreasonable expectation.
                          Nearly all men can stand adversity -- if you want to test a man’s character, give him power.

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by Mad_Gerbil
                            Okay, a couple of points here:

                            1) About Cheating: Nobody has ever been banned for the 'lucky move' you described. People who get banned for that stuff do it 4 times per game ALL DAY LONG. I've done stuff like that before and didn't worry about it because anybody who watches me also knows I'll blow 500 flares and go whole games without finding a single thief. The only person who has been banned for cheating like you've described had over 40 hours of observation invested in busting him AND the observations were made by 1/2 dozen people in a myriad of games over two weeks.}quote}


                            maybe not banned no, but since that incident I've seen players who have
                            and extremely lucky move second guess whether or not they might be investigated. And I believe there has been a few investagitions has there not?

                            {quote}
                            How would you feel if your team was going up against the RLF and you thought Mad_Gerbil was thieving but in reality it was Frantic under an alias? Suddenly Mad_Geril has all the moves and you get your butt owned. How would you feel about that match? Would you congratulate the RLF on it's win or would you be pissed that I let a highly skilled thief outside of the team take the place of a thief who isn't sure how to hold a BJ?{quote}

                            I think this lies at the crux of the matter, whether when playing in turf wars
                            would TUF have an unfair advantage if the opposing Guild had been infiltrated?

                            {quote}
                            3) If you are in Turfwars the RLF will not play your team until ALL players have had their IPs verified. If you are uncomfortable with that arrangement, then do not play in the Turfwars against the RLF.{quote}


                            Fair enough, I would want a fair and honest contest wouldn't you?


                            4) I appreciate Virus' viewpoint on things. It's not fun to have a game sullied in this way since we are all here just to have fun. However, the consequences of not being vigilant is a server full of cheats and ragers and matchs being more the result of spies, thrown games, and backstabbing than skill and teamwork.
                            I agree fully. As unpleasant as it may be. If noone ever checks to see if there
                            is any cheating going on, the servers would be full of them.
                            As proof, look at all the anti cheat client side hack protections that UT has
                            instituted, and still cheating persists. Believe it!

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              oh and Laughing Rat did start WW2 did he not?
                              and absolutely against this group hug idea.

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by Grank
                                Originally posted by PhaeThorn
                                I agree with grank. LR gets blamed for everything. ( like mad gerbil also said )

                                I guess tomorrow people are gonna say Lr started WW2.

                                Let the man go guys! Lr din't do anything wrong .
                                I disagree err wait no I don't.

                                Damn it Phae you posted something I couldn't disagree with.
                                I disagree, you can ALWAYS disagree .... even if it means your lying
                                On demand this signature has been changed. I hope nobody was insulted or got harmed due to my signature. If this is the case, I'm fully responsible for the harm that was done. Do you feel harmed or you simply want a listening ear?

                                Call 0900-PHAE

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