Lame tactic in Folly or acceptable?

[Kiech Bepho]

In Folly, a tactic many guards are using is to stand right next to the exit archway at the very start of the level. There is no way for a thief starting in the exit zone to get out of that position without using at least some equipment.

In Darkened Enlightenment, the door leading from the spawn area has been declared 'as far as you can go' by most here already, since there is at least another option for the thieves to travel by. Yet realistically, you can probably get by that door with an inviso potion/catfall.

So why is it that in Folly the standards suddenly change? The same type of tactic that is declared 'spawnrape' in DE is now 'fine and dandy' in Folly? I don't see the difference here. Its not as if the watching Guard is actually going to allow the thief to wander past him to the other spawn area. It in fact FORCES that thief to use up his equipment, die, or simply wait until the guard decides he is bored and goes to watch over the now well-fortified ruby.

So really, what is the difference here? Why this double-standard?

Kiech

[Thwark]

dude, 3 threads in like an hour.


are you on the cocaine?

[Kiech Bepho]

No, I was just completely owned by Oie and Grank last night...and in front of Dalai too! So I am mulling over everything that happened. Lucky for me that these threads have meaning and lucky for you that I am not posting about everything that happened. 8)

Kiech

[Thwark]

don't worry, dalai was sure to make fun of you last night after it happened :wink:

[Aggamemnon]

"Pwn the guard" simple as.

I wasnt gonan mention this but here goes anyway

I spawned last night to be met by a guard, one you all know and respect, standing in the spawn area on Nostalgia because the map was nearly over with. I spawn and turn around and they go, "Its okay you can go, I wont kill you"

To me this was an insult, if you know me, you know why.
I told that guard this " WTF is this you GOTTA be kiddin me"
"How about YOU can go" So sure enough they stepped onto the scaffold (street side) and shot me a min later (cos no-one likes the I'm good enough that i can PRESUME to definately kill you shit imo) so i chased (yes as a thief) and they came back into the area and got flashed KOed.


Now this guard was pissed at ME even though they instigated the attack.


One. Just because its a guard dont mean they are gonna beat/kill you.
Two. Why is it proxy for a guard to let a thief get passed them when they spawn, you both get your chance to outplay the other.
Three. If a thief does want to get by a guard in this situation, WHY shouldn't they be using Gear to do so? Another case of a thief wanting it in his/her own terms all the time.
At least you KNOW that guard is right there, better than getting surprised and then using gear in panic.


Don't assume a guard will beat you just because it seems he has the advantage.
Don't give a thief benefit of the doubt, he may not want it.


Plus that ai (if a human doesnt take him) can sometimes get a shot or two and maybe kill a thief that spawns in the barrel room, is that unfair, or should the thief have jsut been more careful/used some gear?
MY views on this kinda thing

Agga.

[[RLF]Kore (V)acLoed]

I think the guard did the right thing Agg. If I were in the spawn area and saw a thief spawn I'd tell him he was free to leave. If that thief made any aggressive actions towards me then that safe haven is over. If you linger in the exit then your safe haven is over. You said a minute later that guard shot you. After a minute to me your spawning is over and it's game on. So if it was I, I would of shot you too. Don't mistake a guard’s kindness for a weakness. I have told a thief on Aquatone that spawned in APO he was free to go. Well he went but not before he grabbed all the keys. That was my mistake as soon as he touch the first key I should of killed him.

BTW these are not the feeling of the guild I'm in they are my personal opinions. Basically if you spawn (hit the right mouse button after picking equipment), and I know you just spawned I'll give you enough time to move to safety. Which really does not take more then 15 seconds. After that the whole map is fair game.

[Kiech Bepho]

First of all Agga, I bow to your skill. I don't think I will ever be able to play quite the way you do. You are a VERY exceptional player.

Secondly, I am basing this off of the RULE in DE that says 'don't go past that door'. There is no discernable difference. Also, my thought is that guards should not be camping where thieves spawn - nor should thieves spawn where guards will be. Two simple instances in Aquatone, spawning in the APO, and me being nearly killed while spawning in the vents next to the fan.(he apologized...but still)

Now, as for the 'why not use equipment' part of it. I only get so much equipment. I can't BJ guards in broad daylight like you can(don't belive me? watch him). Not to mention that circle-strifing is susposedly going to be over in 1.3. If the only way of getting out of a situation is to inviso/catfall/bj every time, heck I only get 2 invisos...I am not going to last long.

But here, I am actually asking if it should be OK or not? I may be simply wrong on this, or maybe there is something else I am missing here. But regardless, thanks for the reply,

Kiech

[[RLF]Kore (V)acLoed]

I think a better question is what is your definition of spawn rape?

To me spawn raping is when you see a thief spawn (which thieves are visible while they chose their inventory) and you go to that spot and kill them or try to kill them.

Anytime I see a thief spawning (visible, standing still, in a dark area) I'll move back to an area I can't see him from.

Even better way of not spawn rapping is to not move to a spot you can see a thief spawn until you see all the thief names go white. Grey indicating they are choosing inventory. Once they go white and you have not seen them prior to that you should be able to travel any part of the map.

The difference between DE and Folly is you can't see a thief spawn if you are on the other side of the door in DE. But if you are on the stairs you can see a thief spawning in Folly. So as long as a guard stands where they cannot see any thieves spawning they are fine. And once all thieves have spawned he should be allowed to move any where in the map.

For an instance when the game is already in progress and a guard sees thief just spawn they should shout they saw them and move away. Or if you are a thief and you are about to spawn and think guards are around you should shout that you are about to spawn.

[Kiech Bepho]

Kore (V)acLoed]I think a better question is what is your definition of spawn rape?

That's the crux of the question, yes. And for my point in Folly, thieves spawn in an area that they CANNOT move from without either alerting that guard or using equipment.

Kiech

[Aggamemnon]

Kore (V)acLoed]I think a better question is what is your definition of spawn rape?

Even better way of not spawn rapping is to not move to a spot you can see a thief spawn until you see all the thief names go white. Grey indicating they are choosing inventory. Once they go white and you have not seen them prior to that you should be able to travel any part of the map.

Is my way of making sure, although on DE I usually go to the door and anyone who steps in is killable imo. EVEN if they return to a spawn, I Don't think its fair to allow the thieves that spot as a "Get out of trouble" area that makes them safe no matter what as long as they get back there, although a LOT of thieves will think this and even try it.

Also added a joking sign on my "Pwn" thing, i never use elite speak unless i have to mock someone.

And kore I said a minute, I meant the time it takes to speak those lines, only the time after that to move to the scaffold then shot, i know what the shot was, it was to say lets have it, because people don't like to think that the guy who says you can go will definately be able to beat you. When offered the SAME proposition they could NOT take it, why then should I?

That is the view I hold, anyone who knows they are in a bad spawn position (IE guard close) simply doesnt spawn and asks for sanctuary, anyone who wishes to "Ride their luck" and simply get in fast out fast is a diff matter, since they have spawned they had that choice and decided to take the risk.

What if you called and the guard simply got in a more deadly position, this is what keeps most taffers spawning fast, why then if they dont trust the guard to start, should they blame him for beating the shit out of them?

I wouldn't, since its my choice to spawn.
Don't mistake a thieves bieng off guard for a weakness either then.

[Stakhanov]

Kore (V)acLoed]I think a better question is what is your definition of spawn rape?

That's the crux of the question, yes. And for my point in Folly, thieves spawn in an area that they CANNOT move from without either alerting that guard or using equipment.

Kiech

Use catfall. Use invis. Use speed/vine. Take the ruby. Go back to spawn. Keep ranting on how much spawncamping handicaps the thief team in Folly...

[Bloody-Reaper]

Skeltonshead normally have the docks swarming with guards before you can get off the bridges... And it's damn hard to get out unnoticed... Even worse is when someone are caught trying to get out and causes the guards to come to the bridge where your standing...

[Aggamemnon]

I have still to this day never seen a guard past/on those bridges until the Thieves have some/or both of the objectives, maybe they are not so keen to enter dark areas when KOers are playing. 8)

Next time put one out and see what happens, they either swarm (leaving you to pass the rest of the map) or learn to fear that area of the map.

[Kiech Bepho]

I've seen 'em running there. I fear spawing on the walled side of the docks, since its a very easy place for guards to run up and down with their flares/firebolts. I almost got killed spawning out of there once. Of course, you weren't playing Agga. Typically, they don't run on the docks until after the objectives are completed though. Someone standing in the well-lit area next to the houses doesn't bother me too much, since they won't be able to see all. I even got one of those annoying guards yesterday. Poor Coyote thought he was safe from my speed/inviso/catfall loadout...

Kiech

[Aggamemnon]

And you get the BJ for free :roll: (KO whore me)

("Rational" me)
its also a great place to have a single (should i have to say competent) thief to draw half a guard squad out while the "Runner" as i call loot thieves to do his job

Even a flash is less than that combo and most thieves reserve that setup for taking an objective