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Balancing Issues - What do you propose?

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  • #46
    Well, the obviously solution is the timed penalty for guards, but the inability for thieves to completely take guards out of the game. Guards would wake up after a while, but -vitally important- thieves can't carry their bodies and throw then into fires or an area that takes them out of the game? That, although obviously a very nice touch, makes the thieves too powerful.
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    • #47
      (GTA) When your health reaches 0, you fall unconcious and respawn at the nearest health point.

      So with NB, on hitting 0 health you collapse, unconcious. This of course means you're KOed, which in turn kicks in with the default ko timer (15 seconds) and then you can respawn, buy your stuff (when that's put in ) etc, and if the thief is still where you left them all that time ago, serve 'em right if you decide to investigate the shadows.

      However the ability to pick-up, carry and hide bodies shouldn't be removed, just add ragdoll blocker code into the fire-actors, so that ragdolls just get pushed back from flames (maybe with an "ow!" just so we can have twisted fun rebounding enemy ragdolls against fires in NB .

      It's not like the code doesn't already check whether an AI can move around, and moves them to a near-by pathnode when they're ready to wake so they don't telefrag themselves, so just always make them wake at a near-by node, then don't put any nodes outside the playing area.

      Maybe even have Guard-Only PathNodes, which take spawn priority, so that if the thief spawn is accessible by guards (such as flats for example) then there are guardnodes only in the guard regions, so people won't respawn in thief-spawn.

      Chief
      [E.D.G]Chief

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      • #48
        What's wrong with letting the guards die and respawn them at a guardhouse say, one every 45 seconds, until the guard team is full again? That's how it was in the old beta way back when and not only did I really like it but it was a very solid mechanic and incredibly simple, removing the worry of any corpse exploits because they are just that...corpses.
        One of the three LANers of the Apocalypse!
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        • #49
          You're thinking too narrowly Inq.
          Chains makes a perfect point and solution to the issue.

          Guards have a safe spawn zone as well as a fixed penalty for dying or being taken out of action (be it there own fault or through opposition).
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          • #50
            In that case there should be support for several spawn points across the map, just simple basement doors which won't let the player through. When a guard is killed then whatever time limit later an AI can safely spawn at the nearest "closet" and walk out to the take up the killed guys route again.

            Should avoid having all the AI spawn in the same place and then having to walk across the map to get to where they were patrolling earlier on

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            • #51
              That's exactly how it was in the beta map Kasto. Multiple spawns would possibly be better but it depends on whoever is coding it to implement. The AI would (re)spawn at the guardhouse and walk to their original patrol route, this meant it was possible for the thief team to wait and slaughter them one by one or provided a region of the map where no lone thief would wander freely. Personally I'd only like to see one or two spawns on a map, when there was only one you had the immersive feeling that reinforcements were being called from somewhere rather than the sense that bots were being respawned in a game.
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              • #52
                This boxes-o-endless guards idea sounds neat

                You could still go berserk but it would have lesser impact since you'd at best won yourself some time until the boxes plop a new one and at worst wasted time and resources/health. Would shift focus more to evasive gameplay (since the longer a guard is around the more he prolly faces attrition).

                On the other hand youd prolly end up with guards behaving like suicide bombers. Would need more nonlethal Thief tools for stalling/stopping guards which are increasingly potent the more a guard puts himself at risk. Say you barge into complete darkness the thief gets a bonus to his new nonlethal blackjack which enables him to make you go groggy (like cracked but unable to move) for 20 seconds when it would be 10 seconds dizzy screen with movement capability normally or so.

                PS : BEARTRAPS AND STUMBLING WIRES. Also Axes for guards goddamnit. Axes are cool
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                • #53
                  The simplest way to deal with that is probably to put a considerable delay on how often a fresh guard spawns meaning that at first a dead player can leap right back into the action but a few minutes into the round of reckless playing and the guard players are waiting in a queue for the respawns (which sounds bad but is better than being out of the round as in Thievery and is suitable punishment for all being reckless). Abolishing the Thievery way of restocking a guard on spawn negates any bonus a guard would get from a kamikaze run.

                  If a mapper wished the idea could also be expanded on to do something such as ring a bell or light a signal fire which would give an increase to the guard spawn rate or a one off squad of reinforcements.
                  One of the three LANers of the Apocalypse!
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                  The Unforgiven Casual Gaming Group - New Members Welcome

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                  • #54
                    Sort of like XP in RPGs? So you need 5 seconds for your first guard, then 6, then 8, then 11, then 15 etc... the number maybe capping out at 60 or whatever?

                    Guards respawn in the order in which they were killed, so if two of you die in quick succession then one of you is coming back in 5 seconds, the next 6 seconds after that?
                    ~TuF~

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                    • #55
                      Not exactly, that would be a pain to balance. Think simpler. The AI guards would respawn every...60...seconds and resume an empty patrol route. Dead players automatically take over a random AI guard so while there are plenty of spare AI this is instant (or with a small delay if we choose). If the guards are depleted faster than one a minute there will reach a point where there are more guard players than available guard units, the players will then be forced to sit in a queue until a fresh AI guard spawns which will be immediately taken over by the next player in line until the queue is empty and AI controlled guards continue to fill up the ranks.

                      Of course the arbitrary value of 60 seconds may need to be adjusted, possibly on a per map basis, there may need to be an additional delay (like 15 seconds) for players who just died to avoid them immediately rushing back to where they died and there will need to be some mechanic to 'catch' players who don't have an AI to spawn into to prevent them being 'out' as happened in Thievery once the KO timer was put in - you would often have guard players waiting for an AI to wake up before clicking off the death screen to avoid being banished from the rest of play.
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                      • #56
                        If the guards are depleted faster than one a minute there will reach a point where there are more guard players than available guard units, the players will then be forced to sit in a queue until a fresh AI guard spawns which will be immediately taken over by the next player in line until the queue is empty and AI controlled guards continue to fill up the ranks.
                        So, the thieves KO all the guards but one (just as it so often is in Thievery-Strike) and the guards are stuck waiting for 15-60 seconds, while the thieves just rush the objectives, rush back to the exit and win with a total lack of care or worries that they can easily be found and caught.

                        Sounds like nothing would be really changing between Thievery and nightblade with that idea

                        I would imagine with your idea this wouldn't happen when people are first playing NB, but as with TuT as people get better and learn the game, they'll find out ways to do such things.

                        Chief
                        [E.D.G]Chief

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                        • #57
                          If Guards are getting KO'd left right and centre they need to up their game to stand a chance of winning, just like TuT. Guards arn't helpless.
                          ~TuF~

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                          • #58
                            Why are we sticking with the idea of actually KO'ing guards and they're out... its so 1999.

                            Why not render the guard incapacitated for a shorter amount of time, that way the life isn't taken, and your back on the ball after 15 seconds or so. Makes for a faster game, and thieves will really need to plan who gets hit and what exactly they're gonna do after it....
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                            • #59
                              Mach has a point. As players get better as thieves they will also get better as guards. If a guard is getting knocked out every 15 seconds then the entire team is totally incompetent or the game mechanics are broken. One thief versus one guard should end in guard victory about 80% of the time because guards are meant to be avoided, that's why thieves have the ability to hide.
                              One of the three LANers of the Apocalypse!
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                              The Unforgiven Casual Gaming Group - New Members Welcome

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