Non-server 1.3.1 suggestions

[Kiech Bepho]

First to say, I think the Dev's are doing a great job and deserve a break today. But if possible I would like to see the following implemented. I am trying to keep this list to things that are not server related, and hopefully aren't really hard to program.

-Firearrows for thieves in 'normal' games: For breaking up camping guards, similar to the firebolt.
-Change Crack arrow to KO arrow: Since KO no longer equals death, the effect would be instantanious, like the Thief gas arrow.
-Cheaper broadheads: I thought the old price was already well balanced.
-Lockpicks added to 'standard' inventory: If everyone buys them anyways, why aren't they 'standard'?
-Change invisibility levels: Thieves that can be clearly seen at 10% is just darn silly
-Guards 'wake up' exactly where they lay: Realism and expectation in gameplay
-Mages(sorry I love em!)
-No longer 'throw' bodies, only drop them: Bodies are HEAVY, and since there is an issue with everything being thrown the same distance, dropping them only is a good alternative.
-Unconcious guards vulnerable to damage/drowning/falling/etc: Obvious, why would you become immortal while unconcious?
-Firebolts don't light anyone on fire until they 'explode': I have been lit on fire by a passing firebolt, though I could possibly be mistaken.

There are probably more, if anyone posts an idea here, and doesn't look TOO complicated to code (I will just guess, Dalai and the boys are way better at deciding this than I am), and isn't something that can be changed by a server option, I will edit my post.

Limit 2 firebolts per loadout: Kiech lags my computer when he firespams me.

Having the cash instead of starting equipment: So I have more freedom to buy what I want.

Kiech
www.thecrackaz.com

[Curunir]

Limiting firebolts to a maximum of 2.

[-=V12US=-]

First to say, I think the Dev's are doing a great job and deserve a break today. But if possible I would like to see the following implemented. I am trying to keep this list to things that are not server related, and hopefully aren't really hard to program.

-Firearrows for thieves in 'normal' games

O_o

-Change Crack arrow to KO arrow - since KO no longer equals death

That'd be ruthless for thieves who "accidentally" get cracked by their teammates *eyes Australian person*

-Cheaper broadheads

Hmm, perhaps... broadheads are faster now though... giving a person a lot of broadheads might make killing AI too easy.

-Lockpicks added to 'standard' inventory

Thieves allready get alot of free equipment, giving them free lockpicks as well kinda goes over the top...

-Change invisibility levels - thieves that can be clearly seen at 10% is just darn silly

I agree. Thieves used to be totally invisible at 4%, now they're slightly visible. Many thieves have been killed by this allready, it'll need alot of getting used to so thieves can avoid these 4% shadows. I'd rather have thieves below 5% be totally invisible like they used to.

-Guards 'wake up' exactly where they lay

Hmmm, I'd rather just have corpses be harder to throw. This way the thieves can't throw them out of the level. To balance, standard wake-up time could be set to 10 minutes. Guards in water area's should wake up at the nearest pathnode, if this isn't allready the case.

-Mages(sorry I love em!)

Jeah! But just as AI initially. Letting humans spawn in them might fook up the balance too much.

-No longer 'throw' bodies, only drop them

Agree, or throw them very short distances.

-Unconcious guards vulnerable to damage/drowning/falling/etc

Since bodies float, it's kinda hard to have them drown. They should catch on fire though, and should take fall damage... but it should take quite some damage/time to kill them.

-Firebolts don't light anyone on fire until they 'explode'

I thought they didn't? :?
Anyways, sounds fair. Limit the guards loadout to 2 firebolts as well.

There are probably more, if anyone posts an idea here, and doesn't look TOO complicated to code (I will just guess, Dalai and the boys are way better at deciding this than I am), and isn't something that can be changed by a server option, I will edit my post.

[KewlAzMe]

What you wanna do is give Thieves and Guards the ability to Sell back some of their starting equipment, at maybe 80% of the listed price... so like if you dont want 2 vine arrows..you could sell one back for $40 and use that money for something else you do want. I've grown accustomed to only needing one vine.. i'd rather trade that in for 2 broadheads, or another catfall.

[MortalMonkey]

-Firearrows for thieves in 'normal' games

Agreed.

-Change Crack arrow to KO arrow - since KO no longer equals death

Or rather gas arrows. A bit more expensive, but they can take out everything within a certain radius.
A creature that is hit directly in the head suffers 100% of the penalty time, while bystanders suffer a lesser percentage proportional to their head's proximity to the arrow's impact site.
Gas arrows (or crack arrows if appliccable) can be countered by drinking a breath potion before being affected.
We should maybe keep the crack arrow though, as it is quite effective for sealing off passages.

-Cheaper broadheads

No.

-Lockpicks added to 'standard' inventory

I disagree.

-Change invisibility levels - thieves that can be clearly seen at 10% is just darn silly

No comment as I don't use the percentage metre.

-Guards 'wake up' exactly where they lay

No opinion.

-Mages(sorry I love em!)

Sure. And CombatBots with cannonballs as well.

-No longer 'throw' bodies, only drop them

Yes, I agree.

-Unconcious guards vulnerable to damage/drowning/falling/etc

Yes, and IMO they should have the same health as before they were KOed. If a guard dies by any enviromental damage (fall, crush etc) or mines and caltrops, the thief that last threw the body away is responsible for the death (yay, sudden death on spiders!). If another player kills the body by use of weapons (not doors etc.), it's that player's fault.

-Firebolts don't light anyone on fire until they 'explode'

Firebolts don't light any player on fire (unless maybe they bask in the afterglow so to speak) Instead they should carry a bigger payload of explosives, maybe twice as much.

What you wanna do is give Thieves and Guards the ability to Sell back some of their starting equipment, at maybe 80% of the listed price... so like if you dont want 2 vine arrows..you could sell one back for $40 and use that money for something else you do want. I've grown accustomed to only needing one vine.. i'd rather trade that in for 2 broadheads, or another catfall.

I find it better to start without any equipment at all and more loot to boot. And with the current loadout system it would become pretty messy.

[Slappy]

-Firearrows for thieves in 'normal' games

What's a 'normal' game? I thought 'normal' meant Thieves vs. Guards, in which case I disagree. If by 'normal' you mean thiefmatch, sounds good to me.

-Change Crack arrow to KO arrow - since KO no longer equals death

Crack arrows should then be limited to 2 per loadout, and even then it's quite powerful. The duration of the crack gas should be reduced also. With KO'ing being so easy, I could see the guard team being wiped out by these. I think a helmet should protect against it - if you're wearing a helmet, you get cracked as now. No helmet = nighty night.

-Cheaper broadheads

They just changed this, and for good reason - what makes you think they'll change it back?

-Lockpicks added to 'standard' inventory

Is it that hard to buy lockpicks?
Let's take a closer look:
Guards starting inv:
3 flares (@ 50 each, 150 total)
10 bolts (@ 10 each, 100 total)
Total cost of "freebies": 250

Thiefs starting inv:
5 broadheads (@ 20 each, 100 total)
4 water (@ 25 each, 100 total)
2 vine (@ 50 each, 100 total)
Total cost of "freebies": 300

Thieves already get 50 more worth of stuff (granted, most people don't think 2 vine arrows are that useful..) in addition to the blackjack. Guards still need to buy their main melee weapon. I think it's pretty balanced as-is. However I could agree with lockpicks being added to the standard thief loadout if at least 1 vine and 1 water were removed.

I'd rather see both sides start with absolutely nothing, and instead get more loot to buy stuff. There are thieves who never use broadheads, and thieves who never use vines. I think you'd be hard-pressed to find a guard who doesn't use flares or bolts, but you could start them with nothing for a sense of symmetry. :grin:

-Change invisibility levels - thieves that can be clearly seen at 10% is just darn silly

I haven't seen this in action yet. Thieves are definitely harder to see when they are semi-transparent, but I don't know at which %'s they are invis/semi-invis. I do agree that at 10%, a thief should not be clearly seen. Even at 20% it should be very difficult to see the thief.

-Guards 'wake up' exactly where they lay

I believe this would cause problems because the AI depends on pathnodes to function. Why is this an issue anyway?

-Mages(sorry I love em!)

Mages don't really fit into _my_ vision of the Thief world, but I'm not really against them. Somehow I don't think they fall into the "not really hard to program" category, however..

-No longer 'throw' bodies, only drop them

Makes sense - an unconscious body is hard enough to move. Imagine trying to throw one wearing full plate.

-Unconcious guards vulnerable to damage/drowning/falling/etc

Why not just ask for the "KO'ed guards wake up" feature to be removed, since this is what you really want? While your suggestion is certainly more realistic, and more in tune with Thief 1/2, it would render the wake-up feature almost completely useless.

-Firebolts don't light anyone on fire until they 'explode'

Why not? They are on fire, even as they fly through the air. However I've been shot at with one that passed very close by, and I wasn't caught on fire. Are you sure this is a problem?

I've already made the mistake of suggesting gameplay changes to 1.3. I posted them within a day of its release, no less. Since then I've come to think that 1.3 should be given time so we can figure out what the problems are. Any ideas now are more or less "knee-jerk reactions". We need to play it for a while before we can come up with ideas that really address the problems.

And now for my addition, minor as it is:
On the F2 screen, it lists "Killer Rats". Currently this list contains all the players that aren't thief or guard. This list should only show players that are actually a rat, and not those who are in Free Cam or Follow Cam modes. This would allow those interested in Rat-Wars to see who else is actually participating.

[Lurox]

Would you actually believe that some of these ideas were tested and didn't work?

[Alpha-Omega]

Some of this stuff looks like it belongs in 1.4, let's work on tweaking and debugging 1.3 first

[LaughingRat]

I'll tell you, I'd like to see a version 1.3.1 as well. And I'd like to see it contain NONE of these suggestions. 1.3 is very tweakable as it stands, and we need more time to work out what constitutes a balanced and fun game for both sides.

What I'd like to see in 1.3.1 aren't gameplay features, but some bug fixes. The mantling code seems screwy now, and there's the crouch/water bug that should probably take precedence over new features. 1.3 also contains the NASTIEST bug in any version of Thievery to date, but I won't go into it here. The devs are already aware of it. I'm hoping they can release an updated 1.3 that fixes some of these things very quickly.

But the bug fixes really need to be done before we take about new gameplay features.

[KewlAzMe]

OMG.. i agree with LR again! in the same week. Except I kinda like the idea to start with some more bare minimum stuff.. or maybe no starting inventory... i'd rather have the cash and use things I want. What thief is gonna go with items he wont use? But yes, bug fixes are whats needed here.

[LaughingRat]

OMG.. i agree with LR again! in the same week. Except I kinda like the idea to start with some more bare minimum stuff.. or maybe no starting inventory... i'd rather have the cash and use things I want. What thief is gonna go with items he wont use? But yes, bug fixes are whats needed here.

I do find the idea of an empty starting loadout appealing. Maybe thief and guard starting money could even be equal, then. A price would have to be determined for the blackjack then. And assuming that each already had an actual bow/crossbow would probably be necessary, and only ammo for them need be purchased. Not sure about that, though, because a guard could spend nothing on crossbow ammo, have the crossbow, and just hit the supply chest at the beginning of a round.

But, bug fixes first, please.

[WildBill]

These have all been discussed before, I'm not going to respond to them yet again here. All my previous arguments still stand.

That said, I doubt anything like this will be in 1.31, if such a version is released. If anything it would be to fix a couple bugs, major changes would be in 1.4.

[KewlAzMe]

Not sure about that, though, because a guard could spend nothing on crossbow ammo, have the crossbow, and just hit the supply chest at the beginning of a round.

How about only refilling the number of bolts they personally bought when they goto the chest... or refilling n+1 each time. So if you start with none, goto the chest and it gives you 1...120 secs later you go refill and it gives you 2...etc. up to 10.

But if you buy 8 bolts, use 4 of them, the next time it refills you to your purchased amount of 8 or however many you bought..then if you use none in the next 120 secs it gives you 9...etc (max of 10)

[Kiech Bepho]

Is it that hard to buy lockpicks?
Let's take a closer look:
Guards starting inv:
3 flares (@ 50 each, 150 total)
10 bolts (@ 10 each, 100 total)
Total cost of "freebies": 250

Thiefs starting inv:
5 broadheads (@ 20 each, 100 total)
4 water (@ 25 each, 100 total)
2 vine (@ 50 each, 100 total)
Total cost of "freebies": 300

You forgot about the +250 loot that guards get. Not to mention the supply chest. Of course these COULD be considered server/mapper settings now, but the truth is that most loadouts contain lockpicks, and if the point of giving ANYONE 'starting equipment' is to cover basic needs, wouldn't lockpicks fall under this category?

I don't want to see any of these in 1.3.1.

Take them with a grain of salt then, I am not god, and I am sure Dalai & the Boys will know what should be in and what shouldn't. I am not against waiting till 1.4 for these, but I do think that some of them are well overdue. I can see a quick explanation of each is in order, so I am editing my post to reflect it.

Kiech

[LaughingRat]

You forgot about the +250 loot that guards get. Not to mention the supply chest. Of course these COULD be considered server/mapper settings now, but the truth is that most loadouts contain lockpicks, and if the point of giving ANYONE 'starting equipment' is to cover basic needs, wouldn't lockpicks fall under this category?

The chest has always been a server option. In fact, when Mog's server started up, there was no chest. He eventually enabled it by popular demand. And of course, the starting loot has always been a server option as well. Most admins have gone with the default, so as not to screw up loadouts.

I don't want to see any of these in 1.3.1.

Take them with a grain of salt then, I am not god, and I am sure Dalai & the Boys will know what should be in and what shouldn't. I am not against waiting till 1.4 for these, but I do think that some of them are well overdue. I can see a quick explanation of each is in order, so I am editing my post to reflect it.

Don't take that comment the wrong way, Kiech, I wasn't discrediting our discounting your ideas. But new gameplay features take time to make, and even more to test (to make sure the coding works properly, and to make sure they're not too unbalancing), and the bugfixes we need NOW.