Guard wakeup suggestions

[Thief13x]

Ok, first of all not to diss the dev team or anything but ever since 1.3 came out, my overall Thievery experience has dropped dramatically due to the auto wakeup of the guards. I understand the urn to strive twards realism with that gesture but i think it was a little overboard.

I suggest that instead of having an auto wakeup or even a frob wakeup, guards should be able to buy a potion that when applied to a ko'd guard would revive him. Also, untill any change is made, it would be really great if some of the server admins would agree to turn off the auto wakeup or at least turn the time way up to 20 min or so (phat chance of that happening).

Example: yesterday i was playing Theatre and i was down by the coffins hiding with 1 ai and 1 real life guard. I ran up to the ai and ko'ed it and was getting ready to ko the real life guard when all of the sudden the ai woke back up! after not 5 seconds! i don't know if it was all the comosion i was causing or what but i know i sure don't sleep that light. Needless to say i got my ass whipped whilest being trapped in between the reallife guard and the ai both pounding the hell outta me with swords.

Anyway, im sure that i am gonna get flamed for this, and maybe im the only one but it sure would be nice to go back to the equal respaws scenerio. The ultimate fix for all of this would be to have the ai's get ko'd and not auto wakeup but only wakeup by frob. This would encourage sneak ko'd instead of circlestrafed, also it would incourage ingeniouse hiding places for body's so that guards would not find them .

If you all decide that what im saying is retarted and everything should be left how it is, there is one minor change that could be made to improve the current situation. Make it so when you throw an ai body in the water, he drowns, just like in the original thief. Like i said yesterday while playing, if this is how thievery is going to always be i am going to start ko'ing, hijacking the body, and throwing it outside the map walls (such as nostaliga or Theatre). Then when the real life guard spaws and finds out he's trapped, he will be forced to commit suicide (ingeniouse eh? ). Thanks for listening to my rantings

Timmy

[LaughingRat]

I think the example you gave of the situation in which you were killed is exactly why this change was made in the first place. Thieves shouldn't be assaulting groups of guards in a toe-to-toe confrontation. The fact that you didn't survive the experience indicates that the changes made were successful in this. Maybe next time try to use the thieve's superior stealth to sneak past instead. In any event, if you haven't played much yet since 1.3 was released, give yourself some time to adjust to the changes before you criticize too much.

There is an explanation for that AI waking up other than the amount of noise you were making, however, since they don't wake up based on sound. Either there was ANOTHER unconscious AI there who just happened to wake up then, or more likely, the human guard you mentioned took a moment to frob the AI you just KO'd, knowing that his chances against you were better with backup.

[Bloody-Reaper]

Some taffer... Kuppel-garrett?? or something link that was dming really bad...
I think he mangede to knock out 5 or 6 guards all attacking him in gereome, before he died... To bad he was to busy knocking out everybody to pickup all the potions that got dropped, meaning guards got a full loadout plus the AI's got waked up again... Meaning he achieved absolutely nothing but loose a thief life. But he procede, untill he had been killed 3 times taking down 5 or 6 guards everytime and using all the thieves life.

Next game... Aqua, he tried to do the same. But was less lucky and died rather quick with only a few knockouts. But still wasting ALL the thieves life, he was the only on the got killed out of 3 thieves.

[Mad_Gerbil]

I think the example you gave of the situation in which you were killed is exactly why this change was made in the first place. Thieves shouldn't be assaulting groups of guards in a toe-to-toe confrontation.

Well, you said it alot nicer than I was gonna say it.

[NeoPendragon]

Well I myself don't even like the auto wake-up. I don't even like the instant-frob wake up. Its total bullshit. Stealth doesn't mean anything when you've got flare-scanning shadow slashing/feeling guards running around at 40 mph. with uber insta-wake AI following them. Let me hit you over the head with a baseball bat and see how long it takes for you to wake up. Its ridiculous. I'd really like to see the auto wake time taken out completly and the smelling salts suggestion implemented. Reviving should involve SOME kind of risk to the guard who's doing it. Like relighting a torch. These nerfs to make thieves pacifits is ruining the game for me. And I know at least one other TUT oldbie who agrees with me.

[LaughingRat]

Well I myself don't even like the auto wake-up. I don't even like the instant-frob wake up. Its total bullshit. Stealth doesn't mean anything when you've got flare-scanning shadow slashing/feeling guards running around at 40 mph. with uber insta-wake AI following them. Let me hit you over the head with a baseball bat and see how long it takes for you to wake up. Its ridiculous. I'd really like to see the auto wake time taken out completly and the smelling salts suggestion implemented. Reviving should involve SOME kind of risk to the guard who's doing it. Like relighting a torch. These nerfs to make thieves pacifits is ruining the game for me. And I know at least one other TUT oldbie who agrees with me.

I could see a stronger case for this if thieves couldn't, on so many maps, throw the guards "out of the world". If they were encouraged instead to hide the bodies creatively, instead of just making them completely inaccessible. Have you seen how far those things go when you jump-throw them?

Well, you said it alot nicer than I was gonna say it.

Glad I got to it first then.

[Slappy]

Well I myself don't even like the auto wake-up. I don't even like the instant-frob wake up. Its total bullshit. Stealth doesn't mean anything when you've got flare-scanning shadow slashing/feeling guards running around at 40 mph. with uber insta-wake AI following them. Let me hit you over the head with a baseball bat and see how long it takes for you to wake up. Its ridiculous. I'd really like to see the auto wake time taken out completly and the smelling salts suggestion implemented. Reviving should involve SOME kind of risk to the guard who's doing it. Like relighting a torch. These nerfs to make thieves pacifits is ruining the game for me. And I know at least one other TUT oldbie who agrees with me.

How about before you hit me with that baseball bat, I hit you with a sword and we'll see how well you continue to operate with a gaping wound? Not nearly as well as a TUT thief, I'd imagine. Waking up guards in 5 minutes is no less ridiculous than the fact that it takes 6 sword hits to kill a thief.

If guards move at 40mph, thieves are moving at 44 mph. Your point?

As for stealth being meaningless in TUT, I disagree. It's more important than ever, now.

-----

Thief13x - Gee I'm sorry you're used to being able to take on multiple people by yourself and win. Maybe you should go play Thief 1 or 2. TUT is a multiplayer game, and therefore needs to have some kind of balance between the teams. In 1.2 a thief could DM a group of guards and win. That was wrong. Thieves were never meant to DM everything in sight - why do you think they put all that loot on the maps? Hint: It's not for decoration.

[Bloody-Reaper]

why do you think they put all that loot on the maps? Hint: It's not for decoration.

Erm... Can i get another hint?

[Lurox]

Timmy, there's one thing you have to remember... thievery doesn't have the acrobalicuptic number of guards thief had. That change was necessary in some way...

And Slappy :

If guards move at 40mph, thieves are moving at 44 mph. Your point?

Sorry, thieves may move at 44 mph, but they are visible when doing so. Heavy flare scanning is, IMO, the worst thing in thievery, now.

[Jocke]

Am I the only one not seeing the connection between "tries to KO two guards" and "not knowing what loot is for"?

[Rob FILTH]

Stealth doesn't mean anything when you've got flare-scanning shadow slashing/feeling guards running around at 40 mph. with uber insta-wake AI following them. Let me hit you over the head with a baseball bat and see how long it takes for you to wake up. Its ridiculous. I'd really like to see the auto wake time taken out completly and the smelling salts suggestion implemented. Reviving should involve SOME kind of risk to the guard who's doing it. Like relighting a torch. These nerfs to make thieves pacifits is ruining the game for me. And I know at least one other TUT oldbie who agrees with me.

I actually think theres some good suggestions here-cos even playing as a Guard I feel that some sort of balance has gone straight out of the window when I dont fear running into the shadows as a Guard anymore shadow slashing like a maniac.

There is no fear or jepody playing as a Guard anymore-especially when you can always revive in one of your uber-AI friends immediately afterwards if you are KO-ed and dash back to the scene of the crime.In short-it just takes less skill as a Guard player in 1.3 now when all your Uber-mates are doing it all for you.

Some thing in the Guards load-out to revive KO-ed Guards might indeed work better to address the balance issues so that Thieves have a better chance of winning more than 10%(if that!)of current games-cos the way things stand at the moment new players are just being put off this mod because its hard enough for the more experienced of us Non-DM thieves to adapt to the changes-let alone n00bs which are gonna get sick of being predictably beaten every single game by Uber-Guards.

As for the ghosting and team-work thing in Thief-tactics,yes-I have noticed that it does increase their survival a bit longer,especially if they can report to each other where the guards have taken the chest and try to steal it and hide it in an inaccessable place(by using vine)early on in the game.Ghosting does work better in the Thieves favour to a degree seeing as the Uber AI Guards can hear a KO taking place from about 2 miles away and tag the thief even whilst hiding in the shadows.However,as NeoPendragon correctly states-not even ghosting is gonna work against flame-spamming human guards with their Uber-mates to back them up.

Maybe a limit to firearrows to a Guards load out to say 2 and also smellingsalts to revive their AI Uber-Rambo GuardMates costing say 30 Gold could be the answer to balance things out a bit?

[Thief13x]

Thanks LR, you just made me realise that i wouldn't nessesarilly have to be on the wall that bridges the map from infinity to toss a body over!

On a more seriouse note, i see that most people are happy the way thievery is now, so why shouldn't I? Well the only way im going to be happy is if guards don't have an unlimited number of respawes. Thus bodys shall be stacking up outside the limits of the maps...

[Slappy]

Throwing bodies over the wall is one possible solution.

Did you realize that if you don't KO at all, guards get exactly ZERO respawns? Think about that next time you whip out the BJ..

Rob - the AI on Clever isn't "uber". Sure they have perfect aim, but they aren't the thief killing machines that Genius AI are. Clever AI finally make the AI useful, without being way too powerful (it's possible that Clever is a little too good at some things.. but it's the best setting considering that Normal guards are way too easy to deal with).

[LaughingRat]

Thanks LR, you just made me realise that i wouldn't nessesarilly have to be on the wall that bridges the map from infinity to toss a body over!

On a more seriouse note, i see that most people are happy the way thievery is now, so why shouldn't I? Well the only way im going to be happy is if guards don't have an unlimited number of respawes. Thus bodys shall be stacking up outside the limits of the maps...

That's a shame. It's too bad that you're going to continue the route of guard elimination, rather than learning the stealth and trickery the game was intended to be based on. Even Swiss Mercenary has started to learn the joy of outsmarting the guards, rather than outfighting them.

If you're not interested in this kind of gameplay, why do you play Thievery in the first place? Wouldn't a game where elimination of the opposition is actually the POINT of the game be more suited to your tastes?

[Curunir]

<snip>

I feel the same way you do, but I understand that it is now a part of the game for guards to wake up. IMO, as Timmy suggested, I would like to see the wakeup time at 20 minutes and make it so where frob-wakeups do work still. This gives the thief benefit from taking the time to hide a body.


Also, most of the posts in this forum are beginning to tell people to stop KOing and start ghosting.... I SUCK at ghosting. I'll be the first to admit that. So that may mean I suck at TUT. Then I suck at TUT. But I'm not gonna start ghosting anytime soon because I am being forced to because of the unbalance. And I don't wanna hear anyone's crap about me not trying, because I have practiced for hours upon hours upon hours, to no avail, and I didn't get any better at it after all my practice.