Oh look... a Poll...

[SNAFU]

OK... here's the issue.

Guards are just as fast and agile as thieves, which makes chases a predominantly one-sided affair. Either the thief totally gets away (almost always with the help of a speed or invisibility potion) or the guard finally catches up and kills the thief.

I've noticed that in most games, this is where 99% of the equipment for thieves is used- for get-aways. When they run out, they die almost all the time, because they can't get away from the guard. Even if they run like hell, the guard can keep up, and even cut the thief off. I've also seen several thieves get killed in chases by guards with MACES.

Frankly, this is frustrating to me, as both guard and thief.

As a thief, I like to be able to make good get-aways. In Thief II, there was a certain thrill from going from sneaking around to running like hell from 1000 angry, pissed off guards.

As a guard, I get my thrills from hunting and chasing thieves. But lately, since it's so one-sided, it's not a lot of fun, and chases ususally end after only 10 feet, when they flashbomb me or go invisible, or I cut them down with my sword.

Now for the idea...

I recommend that guards are NOT slowed down in movement speed, but that they mantle slower, or jump shorter, or make sudden turn-arounds slower. This way, theives have a chance to get away, if they find someplace that is hard for guards to follow. For example, on Flats, a thief might easily jump from one building to another, but the guard jumps shorter, so he has to mantle up to continue the chase.

On the other hand, the thief can't truly outrun the guard; he is forced to outmanuever him instead. That takes skill, and a good guard could still catch the thief, such as in the last example, if the guard had jumped at the very end of building, he might have landed on the other side easily.

Of course, for areas where it is impossible to follow the thief, the guard calls for backup, and tells everyone where he lost the thief, like he should.

Tell me what you think...

[Buho]

A very good idea Snaf. I'm interested in other comments (mainly because I'm drawing a blank).

Oh, and can you change the title of this thread? "Oh look, a Poll?" C'mon! You can do better than that!

[SNAFU]

A very good idea Snaf. I'm interested in other comments (mainly because I'm drawing a blank).

Oh, and can you change the title of this thread? "Oh look, a Poll?" C'mon! You can do better than that!

I'm interested in comments too.

Oh, and how about "Look! A Poll! I'm Excited!!"

[WildBill]

For realism, they should be the same speed. I mean, the guards are in heavy armor, but they're also a lot stronger. I also have no trouble getting away from guards without inventory items. Shadows are wonderful things, quite common, and free!

[SNAFU]

For realism, they should be the same speed. I mean, the guards are in heavy armor, but they're also a lot stronger. I also have no trouble getting away from guards without inventory items. Shadows are wonderful things, quite common, and free!

They are roughly the same, yes, but if the chase starts off with the guard about 10 feet away before the thief makes a run for it, the guard tends to stay dangerously close. I ain't talking about a guard seeing you from across the map and running at you Dark. And if you DO mean getting away in close quarter runs like that, I can't say it's worked on me lately...

[Majarisan]

For realism, they should be the same speed. I mean, the guards are in heavy armor, but they're also a lot stronger. I also have no trouble getting away from guards without inventory items. Shadows are wonderful things, quite common, and free!

Thats actually very unrealistic. Have you ever worn even chainmail? Thats heavy stuff alone, but platemail is just ridiculously heavy. I don't care how strong you are, if your wearing platemail even a light jog will take all your energy. I think guards speed should be decreasd and their HP increased to show they are actually wearing armor.

[LaughingRat]

For realism, they should be the same speed. I mean, the guards are in heavy armor, but they're also a lot stronger. I also have no trouble getting away from guards without inventory items. Shadows are wonderful things, quite common, and free!

Strength doesn't play into it that much. I can outrun stronger men than me when they're wearing armor. Flexibility and range of motion play a role, too.

[Biohazard]

If a thief could run around a guard easily, then KOs would be a bigger problem than they are...

[Slappy]

For realism, they should be the same speed. I mean, the guards are in heavy armor, but they're also a lot stronger. I also have no trouble getting away from guards without inventory items. Shadows are wonderful things, quite common, and free!

Thats actually very unrealistic. Have you ever worn even chainmail? Thats heavy stuff alone, but platemail is just ridiculously heavy. I don't care how strong you are, if your wearing platemail even a light jog will take all your energy. I think guards speed should be decreasd and their HP increased to show they are actually wearing armor.

I've never worn chainmail or platemail - but neither has any Thievery guard. If guards were truly wearing plate, then arrows would do next to no damage. Hitting a guard on the back with a tiny stick would NOT knock him out.

Obviously, the Thievery guards are wearing AluminumFoil plate. This accounts for not only the complete lack of protection it provides, but also the complete lack of hindrance to movement. It's easy to fix too! Just get your squire to wrap a new layer over the damaged spot, and it's good as new.

As for the issue the poll is about, I think for balance reasons, thieves and guards must move at the same speed. "Move" includes running, jumping, mantling, etc.

Thieves already have an advantage in a chase - they can go invisible in any shadow. In addition to that, they have the only items in the game that incapacitate the opponent - the flashbomb, and crack arrow.

What you seem to want, SNAFU, is for a thief who uses no supplies to always get away from a guard who uses no supplies. I disagree with that, and I think the escape/chase part of the game is balanced as-is.

[MrEricSir]

It seems pretty balanced as it is, and I don't see speed as an issue. Thieves should run and HIDE, not just run.

[Lurox]

I think that decreasing their agility is a wonderful idea. Making them jump lower, mantle slower, etc...

Maybe climb ladders slower?

[Buho]

Reducing mouse sensitivity could simulate reduced peripheral vision from helmets and spin agility as well. However, those players that play nothing but guards will probably just turn up the mouse sensitivity in options to counter this.

Also, added inertia to the guard's body might do wonders. It would take longer for the player to speed up, change directions, and slow down. No major change, just a small increase.

[-=V12US=-]

Reducing mouse sensitivity could simulate reduced peripheral vision from helmets and spin agility as well. However, those players that play nothing but guards will probably just turn up the mouse sensitivity in options to counter this.

Also, added inertia to the guard's body might do wonders. It would take longer for the player to speed up, change directions, and slow down. No major change, just a small increase.

Say it with me, circle strafing

Guards are fine as is, thieves cannot outrun guards, they have to use cunning.
I managed to shake off three human guards on breakout by running around a corner and hiding in the shadow, the guards all thought I was still running and ran on into the coridor while I went back where I came from.

Add:
Not having that stupid blackjack readied all the time helps a great deal too. I laugh at all you incompetent DM wannabees.

[ToTT]

I think that yes the guards agility could be decreased, but if this is so, and their armor is giving penalties it should also give its benefits. IE shielding blows from crouching bj thieves (ive done it, bjing crouched behind someone), chopping off arrow damage and DM sword thief damage.

[MasterThief3]

I'd say keep it the way it is... but if Dalai adds armor in 1.3 (or +) THEN decrease the Guard's agility/mobility if he decides to buy armor, but keep his speed the same... other then that.. i'd say keep it the way it is.. it seems to keep shifting, which is usualy a sign of balance.