A few ideas...

[Occam]

I have a couple of ideas which I think would improve gameplay.

1 - Make running louder and creeping quieter. At the moment, most of the time creeping isn't worth the effort, as you still make a fair amount of noise on loud surfaces. Running is far more efficient, as you can just quickly loot an area and dash out before the guards can get to you. Note that I think this should apply both to guards and thieves, although we shouldn't make guards too quiet.

2 - I think movement should effect visibility less. In the deepest areas of shadow, a thief can't move faster than a snails pace without being detected. If thieves could move at a walk (running would be silly, yes) without having visibility affected, shadow slashing would become more difficult, as the thieves could dodge incoming guards without giving themselves away. This would allow thieves to properly own the shadows, which is how I think the game was intended. This should be balanced by the upcoming BJ nerf, which should allow the guards to own the light.

3 - Everyone should know by now that I think mines need to be changed, but I'll say it again anyway! Mines should be detonated by all players, have damage increased, and be disabled by repair tools. Alternatively or in addition, allow players to creep over mines, not setting them off.

4 - Reduce Whistler's cost to 100 gold. Then make them smaller, mantleable, louder, emit more light, and not work through walls.

5 - Reduce moss arrows to 25 gold, and allow guards to burn moss away with firebolts and flares. Mossed caltrops should be lost regardless of burnt moss. This coupled with idea #1 would encourage the use of moss for more than disabling traps, as thieves would need to worry more about the amount of sound they are emitting.

6 - Reduce the Flare cost to 25 gold. A default flare and bolt maximum should be placed on a player according to the amount of these items purchased. For example: a player buys 5 bolts and a flare. The starting equipement of 10 bolts and 3 flares plus the items bought=15 bolts and 4 flares as default. The supply chest should fill the player back to this maximum. Dropped flares should ignite after a few seconds, or simply dissapear. With this done, remove the dropped items delay. To encourage players to conserve resources, increase the delay between supply chest uses.

Dinner's here, perhaps I'll post more later.
Let me know what you think!

[Kiech Bepho]

Replies:

1. I think the overall volume/propagation of most sounds needs to be looked at.

2. Movement has always affected visibility. But I also think that areas can be dark enough for thieves to run in without becoming visible.

3. I concur. Except for the part about tools disabling the mines. Guards usually end up with a set or 2 of lockpics anyways during the game.

4. I don't really like the idea of improving whistlers. Whistlers shining into the next room, I think this is a map flaw, not a game flaw. As for them not seeing though walls, I like that part.

5. I don't like this idea.

6. This I like, except just because you drop a flare, doesn't mean you set it off. There is no reason they would light all their own.

Kiech

[Occam]

6. This I like, except just because you drop a flare, doesn't mean you set it off. There is no reason they would light all their own.

Kiech

I think it defeats the purpose of limiting flare capacity to allow guards to fill a room with flares, use the supply chest, scan the level, restock in the flare room, scan, repeat...This idea is meant to force guards to conserve equipement.

[The_Dan]

4 - Reduce Whistler's cost to 100 gold. Then make them smaller, mantleable, louder, emit more light, and not work through walls.

They work through walls because thats how the Unreal engine deals with light sources that are created on-the-fly (the same happens with flares & flames from fire arrows).

Unless we switch to another engine, that bug is here to stay

[Kleptos]

Alternatively or in addition, allow players to creep over mines, not setting them off.
~Occam

that is a damn good idea! At first I thought that only thieves could do that because they are more flexible, coordinated and unarmored, but that would maybe make mines a bit useless... maybe

[Slappy]

1 - Make running louder and creeping quieter.

I thought creeping was totally silent. As a thief I've creeped across metal floors without making a noise (at least it sounded that way to me).

2 - I think movement should effect visibility less.

I believe the new method for thieves' invisibility (that Dalai posted screenies of) is going in 1.3. I'll withhold any comment until I see if that's true.

3 - <snip> Mines should be detonated by all players, have damage increased, and be disabled by repair tools. Alternatively or in addition, allow players to creep over mines, not setting them off.

I wasn't around for 1.1, but from the comments I've read, having mines set off by everyone made them unusable. They are already pretty weak - they are more of a detection mechanism than a damage source. I do agree with the repair tools being able to fix mines. As for the creeping, I'd agree if it were crouch/creeping only. Although I still think mines should be invisible (a la moss and bodies) to thieves.

4 - Reduce Whistler's cost to 100 gold. Then make them smaller, mantleable, louder, emit more light, and not work through walls.

Sounds good to me, except for the working through walls part. The current detection range is very small - right now they're only useful *because* they detect through walls. If you removed the see-through-walls ability, you'd have to increase their detection range to "infinite" (ie, they can see what any human sees).

5 - Reduce moss arrows to 25 gold, and allow guards to burn moss away with firebolts and flares. Mossed caltrops should be lost regardless of burnt moss. This coupled with idea #1 would encourage the use of moss for more than disabling traps, as thieves would need to worry more about the amount of sound they are emitting.

Currently, mossed trops are destroyed (as are any trops dropped onto moss). Of course I would prefer if the trops remained after moss was burned away, but I'd be happy if your idea was implemented as-is.

6 - Reduce the Flare cost to 25 gold. A default flare and bolt maximum should be placed on a player according to the amount of these items purchased. For example: a player buys 5 bolts and a flare. The starting equipement of 10 bolts and 3 flares plus the items bought=15 bolts and 4 flares as default. The supply chest should fill the player back to this maximum. Dropped flares should ignite after a few seconds, or simply dissapear. With this done, remove the dropped items delay. To encourage players to conserve resources, increase the delay between supply chest uses.

Make flares last longer and you got a deal!

[Entropy]

1 - Make running louder and creeping quieter. At the moment, most of the time creeping isn't worth the effort, as you still make a fair amount of noise on loud surfaces. Running is far more efficient, as you can just quickly loot an area and dash out before the guards can get to you. Note that I think this should apply both to guards and thieves, although we shouldn't make guards too quiet.

Maybe just make the existing sound propogate a bit further so you can hear a thief running from further away, and reduce the volume of walking on loud surfaces.

2 - I think movement should effect visibility less. In the deepest areas of shadow, a thief can't move faster than a snails pace without being detected. If thieves could move at a walk (running would be silly, yes) without having visibility affected, shadow slashing would become more difficult, as the thieves could dodge incoming guards without giving themselves away. This would allow thieves to properly own the shadows, which is how I think the game was intended. This should be balanced by the upcoming BJ nerf, which should allow the guards to own the light.

Maybe just reduce the amount that walking affects your visibility so that you can walk in slightly lighter locations without being seen. In pitch black locations you already can though. And I like that it affects your visibility a little, as it should - it's much easier to hide sitting motionless than walking around!

3 - Everyone should know by now that I think mines need to be changed, but I'll say it again anyway! Mines should be detonated by all players, have damage increased, and be disabled by repair tools. Alternatively or in addition, allow players to creep over mines, not setting them off.

I agree. It was funny when guards set them off before, although somewhat frustrating as a guard. BUT, I think they should appear as fully lit always to whatever team has placed them.

4 - Reduce Whistler's cost to 100 gold. Then make them smaller, mantleable, louder, emit more light, and not work through walls.

I like the coupling of this with the infinite 'see what a human sees' visibility above, but not fooled by invis and not affected by flash.

5 - Reduce moss arrows to 25 gold, and allow guards to burn moss away with firebolts and flares. Mossed caltrops should be lost regardless of burnt moss. This coupled with idea #1 would encourage the use of moss for more than disabling traps, as thieves would need to worry more about the amount of sound they are emitting.

I like this but: I would like trops to remain after the moss is burnt. I would like flares to burn the moss in the way that torches are lit, one patch at a time, with puffs of smoke and all. So one flare could burn maybe two patches, and it would be time consuming to remove a whole moss arrow's worth. Firebolts should just wipe the moss out

6 - Reduce the Flare cost to 25 gold. A default flare and bolt maximum should be placed on a player according to the amount of these items purchased. For example: a player buys 5 bolts and a flare. The starting equipement of 10 bolts and 3 flares plus the items bought=15 bolts and 4 flares as default. The supply chest should fill the player back to this maximum. Dropped flares should ignite after a few seconds, or simply dissapear. With this done, remove the dropped items delay. To encourage players to conserve resources, increase the delay between supply chest uses.

I would prefer this, trawled from the old TTLG Thievery forums:

Extension of an idea I had in another thread some time ago:
Don't have the guards buy bolts/flares in the loadout. Have them buy flarebelts and quivers. The larger the size of the quiver, the more expensive it is, the more arrows/bolts you can carry, and similar for flares and flarebelts. Have them fairly expensive, so that it would not be quite as easy to get as large a capacity as you can now. Then remove the time limit on the supply chest. Each time the player frobs it it will add X amount of bolts and flares to their inventory, up to the capacity of the loadout items they purchased. Special bolts displace a regular one in the quiver, but are not replaced when the chest is frobbed.

So, instead of dropping things all the time to resupply, you can just carry as much as you pay the capacity for initially, and resupply up to that maximum. This will generally be a little less overall than you can at the moment, to offset being able to resupply more easily, but you will be able to spend more and carry more if you choose to sacrifice elsewhere.

[Occam]

First off, thanks for the feedback!
Now I have some counter-questions/comments...

4 - Reduce Whistler's cost to 100 gold. Then make them smaller, mantleable, louder, emit more light, and not work through walls.

They work through walls because thats how the Unreal engine deals with light sources that are created on-the-fly (the same happens with flares & flames from fire arrows).

Unless we switch to another engine, that bug is here to stay

I'm not positive we are referring to the same thing here. It sounds to me like you are talking about the slight green glow that can be seen on a wall between you and an active whistler. I am referring to the fact that whistlers can be set off at all when the thief is on the other side of a wall. If you were referring to the same thing, sorry.

I thought creeping was totally silent. As a thief I've creeped across metal floors without making a noise (at least it sounded that way to me).

In my experience, creeping makes a small amount of sound on tiled and metal grated areas. I could just be stupid, however.

I believe the new method for thieves' invisibility (that Dalai posted screenies of) is going in 1.3. I'll withhold any comment until I see if that's true.

Good point. I'll bite my tongue for now.

*screws quoting, just answers #3*

I've been around since 1.0. I was irritated at times when my teammates blew up my mines, but now it is even worse. I think they would still be useful for guards so long as they communicate with their team, and placed the mines in less heavily trafficed areas and more stratigically sneaky places. I do not feel that mines are meant to render doors "guard only." And yes, I meant crouch-creeping only, at the slowest possible speed. I also like the idea that if the player is attacked, the mine should detonate. Heh. Shadowmelding for mines is a cool idea too.

#4 - I can't say I agree with you completely, but this would greatly reduce their usefulness. I'll edit and suggest that the range of detection should be increased as well. This coupled with the reduced cost and a guard who is willing to look find strategic places for the whistler could save this idea. Provided that I understood The_Dan correctly.

#5 - Cool.

#6 - Snoogans. =)

[Occam]

I like the coupling of this with the infinite 'see what a human sees' visibility above, but not fooled by invis and not affected by flash.

This idea is pretty interesting, I must say. At first I didn't like it, but I'm thinking about lots of uses and counters for it, rather than the current 'place whistler in front of door and wait' strategy. Perhaps it should not detect creeping thieves (at least at a distance). If this is implemented, we may want to scratch the reduce to 100 gold idea.

I like this but: I would like trops to remain after the moss is burnt. I would like flares to burn the moss in the way that torches are lit, one patch at a time, with puffs of smoke and all. So one flare could burn maybe two patches, and it would be time consuming to remove a whole moss arrow's worth. Firebolts should just wipe the moss out

I think that would shoot thieves in the ass a little too hard. It's tough enough as it is to land a moss in a fully tropped korman ruby room. And agreed on the burning method. =)

I would prefer this, trawled from the old TTLG Thievery forums:

Extension of an idea I had in another thread some time ago:
Don't have the guards buy bolts/flares in the loadout. Have them buy flarebelts and quivers. The larger the size of the quiver, the more expensive it is, the more arrows/bolts you can carry, and similar for flares and flarebelts. Have them fairly expensive, so that it would not be quite as easy to get as large a capacity as you can now. Then remove the time limit on the supply chest. Each time the player frobs it it will add X amount of bolts and flares to their inventory, up to the capacity of the loadout items they purchased. Special bolts displace a regular one in the quiver, but are not replaced when the chest is frobbed.

So, instead of dropping things all the time to resupply, you can just carry as much as you pay the capacity for initially, and resupply up to that maximum. This will generally be a little less overall than you can at the moment, to offset being able to resupply more easily, but you will be able to spend more and carry more if you choose to sacrifice elsewhere.

I admit that the idea I posted above is just a slightly modified version of this great idea. The only reason I felt the need to change it is that I don't feel the supply chest should give guards an unlimited and constant supply of bolts and flares. If implemented, the guards will just run around the level for a few minutes, flares a'burning, crossbows a'blazing, then upon running out of stuff they will return the chest and repeat. I want to see guards focused on conservation.

Thanks, keep the ideas flowing!

[Entropy]

This idea is pretty interesting, I must say. At first I didn't like it, but I'm thinking about lots of uses and counters for it, rather than the current 'place whistler in front of door and wait' strategy. Perhaps it should not detect creeping thieves (at least at a distance). If this is implemented, we may want to scratch the reduce to 100 gold idea.

I'm thinking the same - it would be more interesting than the current use, and require it to be out in the open more, hoping to catch thiever out of shadows. Guards will also be looking for nice long lines of sight, though perhaps there should be some limit.

I think that would shoot thieves in the ass a little too hard. It's tough enough as it is to land a moss in a fully tropped korman ruby room. And agreed on the burning method. =)

Ok, I'm happy with the trops either staying or going

I admit that the idea I posted above is just a slightly modified version of this great idea. The only reason I felt the need to change it is that I don't feel the supply chest should give guards an unlimited and constant supply of bolts and flares. If implemented, the guards will just run around the level for a few minutes, flares a'burning, crossbows a'blazing, then upon running out of stuff they will return the chest and repeat. I want to see guards focused on conservation.

Thanks, keep the ideas flowing!

Actually your suggestion was pretty different, given it wouldn't reduce the amount that guards can carry in general, and still retains the chest delay. I think my suggestion would cause guards to conserve also, but especially so the further they roam from the chest, since they wouldn't in most cases be able to carry the 10 that they can now. It would also get rid of the 'drop flares, fill walls with bolts' issue, since there would be no point in it.

Anyway, yeah some good material going around here

[Occam]

Actually your suggestion was pretty different, given it wouldn't reduce the amount that guards can carry in general(snip)

The way I meant it to be, it would. Perhaps I didn't express myself properly, so I'll try again: Whatever amount of flares and bolts the player has at after item purchasing is completed (3 flares and 10 bolts default + whatever the player buys) becomes the maximum that player can carry, as well as the amount resupplied by the chest. (so I can buy 2 flares, use the supply chest for 5 flares, but not pick up any dropped flares, as I will already be at my maximum)

Unless I misunderstand your idea, we only have 3 differences: 1. You're suggesting special items (flarebelts and quivers) to set capacity for items carried, where I'm just suggesting that the maximum be set by the amount of those items bought (a minute difference, really). 2. You said special bolts should displace normal bolts in the quiver, while I didn't mention it (although I think this is a damn cool idea). 3. You think the time limit between chest uses should be removed, while I think it should be increased.

A compromise: impliment a flare/bolt limit somehow set during purchasing, and make the delay between chest frobs a server option. That way everyone could test it for balance, but we wouldn't need a patch to alter it.

[Occam]

New suggestion.

Implement a delay between respawns. In my opinion, nothing in this world is more annoying than pulling off a beautiful surprise KO, only to be firespammed 5 seconds later by the same guard. I suggest that upon death or KO, the player cannot "click to respawn" immidiately. I suggest 30 seconds before this can be done, allowing the thief to reap some benefits for taking out a guard (while less beneficial for the guards, it should nonetheless be implemented on both sides). In addition, during the time between the takedown and respawn, the player should be considered a rat for purposes of whispers. This will prevent freshly KOed players from alerting other guards to the presence of their assailants. In the same vein, give players the option to respawn as a rat, so that they may spectate without wasting more player lives.

[LaughingRat]

A compromise: impliment a flare/bolt limit somehow set during purchasing, and make the delay between chest frobs a server option. That way everyone could test it for balance, but we wouldn't need a patch to alter it.

Supply chest delay already is a server option. It's not configurable in the interface, but there's a setting for it on one of the .ini files. There are also settting for such things as chest repair time, whistler repair time, torch relight time, and a whole slew of other things.

[Occam]

Supply chest delay already is a server option. It's not configurable in the interface, but there's a setting for it on one of the .ini files. There are also settting for such things as chest repair time, whistler repair time, torch relight time, and a whole slew of other things.

Snoogans.

[The_Dan]

I'm not positive we are referring to the same thing here. It sounds to me like you are talking about the slight green glow that can be seen on a wall between you and an active whistler. I am referring to the fact that whistlers can be set off at all when the thief is on the other side of a wall. If you were referring to the same thing, sorry.

Oops, my bad