Fists, Optional Blackjacks & Training

[The_Dan]

OK, we've all had the conversation about whether blackjacks should be made optional & give thieves extra money with which to buy them, which I think is a great idea.

We've also had the conversation that if thieves don't automatically get a blackjack, they should be allowed to endulge in melee combat (ie. fists), which is also a pretty great idea.

However, I'd like to expand upon this with another past topic: "Buying experience".
OK, a bit too RPG for some people, but the original theory works like this:

Spend X amount of cash & you become Z faster/stronger/etc

Now none of that is my idea. What I was thinking is:
Hmm, if both thieves & guards could use their fists, perhaps they could pay for training to make them more profficient fighters.

In other words, lets say that fists would do about 4 blood drops of damage by default, but for every 50 loot invested into training, an extra blood drop of damage would be caused by hand-to-hand attacks.

However, to set hand-to-hand combat apart from normal weapon combat, we could also say that training gives a minor boost to other stats:
50 loot gives:
- a 4% speed boost
- a 4% increase in jump height
- the ability to resist 4%

Now, I've kept this VERY simplified for all you anti-RPG people: There is only one skill in which you can invest, & in small amounts the change is negligible

However, this would provide a completely new-playstyle/stategy:
-Spend all of the money on training & make your character exceptionally strong (+48% to speed, jump height & resistance), but lacking in all equipment departments.

Note to people getting ready to hammer this idea:
Obviously, the argument that Thievery should stay non-RPG, like Thief & Thief 2, is fair enough. But I still hope people will say why they don't personally like the idea. The dev's are trying to take this mod in the direction that people want it to take, so please consider how this would play & not just whether you like RPG's or not.

(Incase you're wondering why I've brought this up, I've just been playing Nights Edge & was pondering over the recent addition of cyber-enhancements)

[SNAFU]

LOL! I am Kung-Fu mastah! Go for the jugular when that guard charges you. Then arm-bar and... good night, Irene...

[Abrahamster]

To me, this suggestion basically boils down to the following argument:

Given that you can specialize in small-duration major-effect changes to speed and prowess...
Consider specializing in major-duration small-effect changes to speed and prowess.

If this paraphrase is accurate, I suggest it becomes a map issue and not a loadout issue. If a mapper wishes, he or she can provide special items that provide a major-duration and small-effect boost to whatever ability or abilities.

This has several advantages:
(a) the mapper has authority to be sure such things will not affect game balance in unexpected ways, and existing maps need not be changed
(b) handicaps such as "only functions when actively carried in hand" or "only functions if I have collected X of these" can be easily added
(c) a "store" can be implimented simply by making the items worth negative loot while owned, and vanish when dropped

To become a boxer or karate champ, you might pick up an item (gloves, gi, etc.) that slightly augments sword damage but removes the sword picture from both 1st and 3rd person view.

To become quick and more silent you might pick up boots with springs and tiny fluttering metal wings that increase speed and cause you to move with bounding leaps while "held".

To become better armored as a guard you might pick up a suit of armor that slows movement by decreases the damage you take from a sword/arrow.

And so on...

[Tieom]

Humm... that would be a bit powerful fully upgraded - 12 droplets damage for the thieves and 17 for the guards - you only have about 20, ya know. On top of all the other bonuses, it would basically make you... *glances around* Faster than a speeding arrow! Stronger than a fully charged mace blow! Able to leap the DE hedges in a single bound! Iiiiiit's .... SUPER THIEF!
So, no, I don't think this is a particularly good idea.

However, I DO think that weapon 3 should be fists if not filled with a sword/mace, for guards, at least. Maybe a set o' spiked knuckles for 50 loot.

[-=V12US=-]

This all sounds too much like arcade for me...

I allready suggested pre-match determined bonusses for a more RPG effect once, but everyone thought it was a bad idea... and frankly, when I come to think of it, they were kinda right.

[Omega]

That would be garlisk who started that topic. But yeah, not everybody liked it. Including me.

[Lurox]

Do you have any ideas that will promote sneaking instead?

[Tieom]

For sneaking, you could have 50 loot buy you:
Make 4% less noise (Including bow-draw, possibly)
Be 4% less visible.

This would likely become a major part of the loadout of ghosters, especially if the blackjack becomes a purchasable object.

[[E.D.G]Chief]

ok-heres an idea- single player game type in console:
summon thweapon.fists
or.....
summon thweapon.oldfists

now I dare you to try and win a game with just those fists -its near impossible with guards having a nice big mace :grin: but at least you could see the tut teams attempt at thief boxing matches

[-=V12US=-]

For sneaking, you could have 50 loot buy you:
Make 4% less noise (Including bow-draw, possibly)
Be 4% less visible.

This would likely become a major part of the loadout of ghosters, especially if the blackjack becomes a purchasable object.

Just as DM'ers can buy swords, ghosters should be able to help them ghost throughout the whole match, a onebuy-manyuse item like for instance Furr Boots or something, to soften any walking and jumping noises.

[The_Dan]

Chief]ok-heres an idea- single player game type in console:
summon thweapon.fists
or.....
summon thweapon.oldfists

now I dare you to try and win a game with just those fists -its near impossible with guards having a nice big mace :grin: but at least you could see the tut teams attempt at thief boxing matches

Yeah, I've seen them.

But that shows that the dev's were at least considering including fist-combat.

If they wanted to completely scrap the idea, they wouldn't have left the fists in. I'm guessing they're waiting for some kindof inspiration on what to with hand-to-hand combat.

[Anonymous]

How about just making the fists a default melee weapon instead of the blackjack. They do small enough amounts of damage to only aid other thieves attacks from hits to the front of the guard, but they could knock him out with 3 or so hits from behind. It would also be interesting to try out a disarm style move like that seen in the N64 game Perfect Dark.

[Shadowstar]

How about fists automatically ready when you're not holding a weapon or when you're holding an item? Fists would do only a little damage, but could attack fast, and you could use them while holding a small object, like a small crate, bottle, or flare. Attacking would either drop (primary attack) or throw (frob) the object, and at the same time use a melee attack (maybe not with frob tho). This way, at least a guard wouldn't be totally undefended if a thief runs at him full force while he's scouting around with a flare. The guard could at least try to sock the thief a good one while he's pulling out his sword or mace with the other hand.

Granted, the fists shouldn't do as much damage (maybe 1 to 2 drops), and if you do manage to drop someone with fists it should count as a KO (even though BJ-style one-hit KO's shouldn't be possible with fists), but it would be nice to have some kind of attack, even if its just a small one. And it would be useful for thieves, especially if bj's are made optional. A super-stealth thief could opt to not have a bj or sword, and just go around barehanded, with a loadout full of stealthy equipment. He'd almost totally avoid combat, or pick off guards with his bow (there's another idea: optional bows), or punch out a badly injured guard if he gets the opportunity.

Another idea to consider would be to allow a "melee rush" sort of thing with fists. Normally, each attack from fists would take about as long between attacks as a mace (or maybe a sword?), but whenever you got a hit, you could get a "rush", and the next attack would only take half that time, allowing you to get off a string of consecutive hits in a row if you were good. This would add an element of skill to the use of the fists, not some intangible RPG style "point-based" skill, but real skill that would be learned by the player themselves, not simulated in the game by a number. Real skill is what divides newbies from experts, and it's something that should be encouraged.

I think this idea could actually work quite well.

Another idea to supplement this could be to increase the damage potential for certain thrown objects. For instance, throwing a metal frying pan at someone should do more damage than throwing, say, a wooden bowl. If the devs could add in damage tables for each object, it could provide a whole new level of strategy. Although I would seriously suggest not allowing any of these items to do alot of damage, maybe 6 drops at the most, and of course throwing things around makes alot of noise. A real weapon is always the best choice for fighting, and thrown objects should be blockable, but the ability to throw things at guards adds another element of strategy for the unarmed thief, and he'd have to be able to determine which objects are likely to cause the most damage when considering something to throw. I know thrown objects already do some damage, but it's barely anything and I don't think there are any differences in the damage ratios between various objects. A system like this could add a whole new playing style to the game, definately for the thieves who prefer stealth, and maybe even for guards who prefer to spend thier money on security devices, tools, and items rather than weapons (sorta like an engineer class?)

[Majarisan]

On top of all the other bonuses, it would basically make you... *glances around* Faster than a speeding arrow! Stronger than a fully charged mace blow! Able to leap the DE hedges in a single bound! Iiiiiit's .... SUPER THIEF!

:lol: :lol: :lol:

[Stakhanov]

I don't think bare fists fights are a good idea... they should just cause 2 sounds to play on frontal hits : "bonk" and "ouch !" (from the thief...)
Throwing butcher knives would cause significant damage , but bigger objects such as crates and cooking pots would rather stun the chasing guards. Best thing to throw being the metal crates (both high damage and stun effect from a sufficient height)