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The end of Turf Wars III

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  • #31
    I'm going to throw my 2 cents into this discussion even though I wasn't directly involved.

    As you all know I don't really play Thievery anymore, but I still show up every once in a while. The reason for this is not because I don't enjoy playing the game, but rather the community that has become all about winning at all costs as apparent here. Call me whatever names you want to label me with, but I'm not willing to use exploits to win a game. I don't demand that others don't use them either, I just stop playing with them. Tournament play has become a matter of what team is more ruthless to take the crown by using underhanded tricks and the map exploits that would generally be considered cheating in public servers. Thieves don't even bother with objectives, just kill all the guards (dev problem imo). The fun that existed in TUT has left, leaving only a handful of players dedicated to being better than their peers. This is just sad.

    I've been playing the last two weeks in the servers under aliases, and don't think I want to play on public servers anymore. If someone (LM) is hosting a private server with people that want to play to have fun, I'm game. For those of you who are still only interested in getting the win, enjoy TUT. You've taken what originally was the friendliest community on the net and turned it into another Counter-Strike, where winning is everything.


    • #32
      Hey!! Will you just stop it?! Will you just hold on a minute?! Look at you guys! Fighting on the Malaka-Laka Board! You should be ashamed of yourselves! Back in the driveway we were nothing! Now we've risen to the highest levels, ...and you're throwing it all away. If you've forgotten what Thievery means to America, you have only to look at this board! The Malaka-Laka Board of Trust. Don't you see what we have here? A game where guys with bad backs and bad knees can ...get together on the same field and compete as guys that are all goosed up on steroids. And more than anything, isn't this game about gettin' together with your friends and just havin' a good time? I remember. I remember a long time ago I didn't have anybody. And you guys took me in. I guess that's why it kills me to see you like this. If we can't be friends, then the heart and soul are out of this game. Certainly out of me. And I know I'll never get that back again. God, we have sullied the waters of the Lagoon of Peace! I'm begging you, for the love of our Caribbean brothers, dudes, stop this madness!!

      please stop lets get back to the community we once were.
      I have sex with my hand!


      • #33
        Amen brotha! It be seemin dat duh camunity needs a healin! Do you need a healin brotha?? Do you need a healin?? I think we all need a healin!! Awwwoohhhhhh yeah! I feel Jesus! I feel em! Can yah feel em????

        LOOK! I even made a get well soon card!
        |get well       |
        |soon           |
        |thievery       |
        |community      |
        |               |
        A day in the world of cyberspace...phew!
        Last edited by okih-imus; 25 Apr 2005, 08:21 PM. Reason: Read HS post


        • #34
          First off thanks to Dragon for the apology. I've taken it as genuine, I appreciate it and from a personal standpoint I'll give you every opportunity to show that you really mean it.

          To Bio: I don't know how you can possibly match up public games to top level tournaments, but you appear to have done exactly that. Pub games are still about fun for us, we try new things and screw around as well as playing seriously. This is all old crap, it's an endlessly repeating cycle. People got cut about firebolts so they left public play. People couldn't handle DMing so they left public play. Those that chose to adapt stayed and became better players because of that, and the game is more balanced than ever before. It's become much deeper on a strategic level.

          Did we exploit a map in the latest TurfWars? Yes, we did. For a single round that map became unwinnable. Were serious exploits used against us? I consider the hardest thing about guarding Stronghold the inability of guards to know where the plans are. That changed in our game - all three guards knew the location of the plans, through an exploit - but our thief team won anyway.

          And so on it goes. The fact is, the serious exploits we find in these games should be noted and then fixed. The spider vents altered, the aqua lift made far less buggy, the chests and safes on skelts and stronghold fixed. In a macro sense we're doing this game a favour by finding things to fix. There is no way this kind of thing happens on public play, and if you choose not to play on crkz or brodys I can only put that down to not being able to handle the skill level of the average player, because there isn't the team co-ordination nor the desire to pull off hardcore exploits.

          The community is fine, for some reason you've all forgotten that we had flamewars and arguments just as much "back in the day" as we do now. People got caught exploiting tournament rules... other people got angry. Shit happens.

          I hear the doom predicters and nay-sayers talking about how "this is the end of competitive Thievery" "oh the game is going to die" and similar rubbish. Most of the problems and nasty exploits will be fixed in the next revision. If people want to run purist tournaments, the Mockers will be in there. We will definitely participate in the next TurfWars, no matter what structure it takes.

          The community at large is hardly about "winning at all costs". Hell, our TurfWars plan didn't even involve winning at all costs. I've said it before - if we wanted to WIN AT ALL COSTS, we'd be milking the rules and all the exploits we know in this game for all they were worth. You'd be playing the Mockers on an Australian server, at 3am in the morning, and you'd find the aquatone vator hacked three times in a row.

          We could have used software mode to see things we shouldn't see, we could have screencheated using TS, I could have lanned with Rodent, ffs. But we did none of those because we are not like that. We weren't the first team to exploit, we won't be the last; but at the end of the day TurfWars is only improving in quality of rules and matches and there will be another tournament yet.

          P.S. Interesting you should mention Counter-Strike. An Australian team beat 3D (America's best) back in the day because they threw smoke grenades OVER the spawn wall on de_cbble. By the time the Australian team assaulted the bombsite, it was smoked out and the defending Americans could do nothing but try and retake the site. It worked a charm, and was fixed in the next revision of the game. Just like all these exploits we've found could be fixed, and Tournament play improved.
          There are not that many map-specific exploits that can guarantee a match win. They are all fixable.
          .:Mockers Thievery Guild:.
          - "until the cat is skinned"


          • #35
            Fucking Hell yeah is all I can say to that.
            How TuF are you?
            League of Legends
            Bloodbowl by Extensions


            • #36
              Originally posted by Aggamemnon
              Fucking Hell yeah is all I can say to that.
              Yenz: "It's only murder if they say stop"
              Mono's wife: "What if they are mute?"
              Yenz: "There are internationally recognized hand signals for 'stop killing me you bastard!'"


              • #37
                Originally posted by Biohazard
                Thieves don't even bother with objectives, just kill all the guards (dev problem imo).
                Just an obversation on the state of the game at the moment, for those he might be interested.

                Just one point, DM tactics were reasonably minimal in this tournament not what you suspect.
                Mockers played 17 rounds in all.
                1 was won purely by DM.
                2 were played with the intention to DM and then either failed or the win came by objecitves.
                In the remaining 14 rounds, the thief teams played with the intention of an objectives win, kills and kos along the way were for survival or in an attempt to weaken the guards by killing off AI.

                I say the 'thief' element of the game is still alive in thievery.

                So, the tournament failed, but that dosen't mean it wasn't enjoyable while it lasted playing with a close-nit team against strong opposition was a privelege.

                Keep it real yo
                Last edited by TafferBoy; 26 Apr 2005, 04:03 AM.
                .: Daymaster - Mockers Thievery Guild :.


                • #38
                  I think maybe dming is less frequent against good guarding teams whereas online you are playing against ppl who are pretty mediocre (e.g. me)?
                  Night of the Werewolves II
                  A Thief's Guide to Thievery for UT (video not complete yet)


                  • #39
                    I dont see the Relations, Grank, sorry, i dont.

                    1. You ll find some Postings from me in the Thread of the TW Tactics.
                    Read them. Go read them. Do you see any Relation to that Things that have spoken about "we let sneak someone in our Team aliasing"?
                    No Sir, you wont find. I ve not seen and read that.

                    You Sir knows nothing about my Forum Interests or Behavior. Just the Fact i am present with some Postings, that do relate to the Posting direct above my own, lets you guess, guess, i would have seen or read the other Things. No Sir, i did not.

                    My Forumbehave is nothing like that, I never enter a Forum and "lets see what is here all to find". I only look the Threadsubjects, and read if there is something interesting to me.
                    Now tell me, what might have been interesting to me on the TW Tacs? I dont run a TW Server for the TW Tourneys, i dont be in any Team that do TW Matches. Why should i do read all? About 10 Pages backwards? What for?
                    So i entered the Thread and told "go, use one of my servers for practice". That does not mean, i ve been reading about 10 Pages backwards, it is just meaning, i had a Reason to enter this Thread and give my Words.

                    It is sad, that you dropped my Access to your Logs, it is sad, that you asked me to drop your Access from THAB. This because, both has nothing to do with TW.
                    Your Logs and my THAB are fully for the Thievery Admins Serverwide IPdatabase. Now how does your view on me conflict the Support to do a Serverwide Circle, where all Admins support each other? And then you shoudl drop my Access from your Adminforum, too, not? If break Bridges, break them right.

                    You Sir, has jugded me on nothing else, but "it seems, that you....". This is not your Thing Grank. You should know me better. This thing is a typical Thing of Mr. Uber TH. It is the same Way it went. "look, seems like, no questioning about, judge, off".

                    I asked you to read the Thread again later. You should notice, that i have nothing to do with that Story. The Fact i have access, is not a Reason to judge me. The Fact i did post, is not a Reason to jugde me. Then go and read my Posts. You ll find nothing in Relation to the "plan Alias", which should support my Word to you, i have not noticed, seen, read, understood anything in this Direction.

                    I am very disappointed, that you think that on me, we had enough Contact to each other, so you really should know it better.
                    A real huge Man will neither stamp on a Worm, nor crawl for an Emperor

                    Thievery Customs Center
                    Vietcong Customs Center


                    • #40
                      Brody this is not a discussion for public view. If you want to discuss this further please feel free to email or instant message me.


                      • #41
                        That makes hope. oki, will do
                        A real huge Man will neither stamp on a Worm, nor crawl for an Emperor

                        Thievery Customs Center
                        Vietcong Customs Center


                        • #42
                          First I would like to apologize to NLDW for my negligence the past couple weeks of the tournament, I have been damn busy. Thanks to wildbill for trying to making this tournament last as long as it did.

                          As far as DM? I find that I usually dm more than sneak, but sneaking is much more effective, only when i'm in the mood though.
                          "It is truly a shame that the guards must be kept from the very tools of thier proffesion, but such blatant misuse of gas arrows cannot be tolerated. Alas, that poor burrick..."


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by Convict
                            I think maybe dming is less frequent against good guarding teams whereas online you are playing against ppl who are pretty mediocre (e.g. me)?
                            Yes it does depend on who you are playing with and against. Also it depends on what map you are playing.
                            .: Daymaster - Mockers Thievery Guild :.


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by Grank
                              Brody this is not a discussion for public view. If you want to discuss this further please feel free to email or instant message me.
                              forget it
                              Last edited by Brody; 2 May 2005, 01:17 AM.
                              A real huge Man will neither stamp on a Worm, nor crawl for an Emperor

                              Thievery Customs Center
                              Vietcong Customs Center


                              • #45
                                Firstly, there is too much text for me to read through it all, particularly when I am not fully aware of the goings on of recent times. I have read Grank's post which seems to give a nice overview and some other posts also, bits and bobs. If I have missed anything then sorry.

                                This just strengthened my views on this 'community'.

                                When is an apology not an apology? When those apologising will recommit without so much as blinking an eyelid. This is all about winning to you - the exploits, the conspiring on ts and otherwise, the methods of play.

                                The fun is lost in the game.

                                Look inside yourselves and you will see that all you want out of the game is to win. It seems to me you want people to 'worship' you and say how brilliant players you are. That is quite sad.

                                The thing is, it seems (I'm not sure the entire extent of the people) all the people I would expect. Merely because of their attitudes before. The thing is, nothing will happen about it. Nothing of proper consequence that is. Such is why many people such as myself have left. Thievery has gone so far downhill that now, it appears to have started digging.

                                I have said this over and over, but you still don't accept it. To most of you, it is all about winning. You will probably deny this, but these actions show it again. You are only lying to yourselves really.

                                If anyone else had done this, I would say that they would have been banned permanently. However because of who it is, and because of what ties they hold within the community, they can do what they like with little consequence. In fact many are admins etc. It is abuse of power really. The community is very corrupt and there is no need for it. It is very sad that people bother to even do these things in the first place - do you have no lives or something?

                                I will most probably get insulted now in some way, or merely discredited. Fair enough, I wouldn't expect any less. Just try to grow up and stuff really. I don't care what you think of me, so say what you like.

                                Cheers, Daniel
                                These days I find that I can't be bothered,
                                To argue with them - well what's the point?
                                Better to take you shots and drop down dead.