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  • #46
    LOL, how old are you citizen?
    This is my cool sig.

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    • #47
      Originally posted by Citizen Erased
      I will most probably get insulted now in some way, or merely discredited.
      Originally posted by Daniel
      LOL, How old are you Citizen? :p
      *shakes head
      "Just off the border of your waking mind there lies another time, where darkness and light are one. As you tread the halls of sanity, you feel so glad to be unable to go beyond. I have a message from another time."

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      • #48
        Originally posted by daniel
        LOL, how old are you citizen?
        Does it matter? He's stated his opinion, as his opinion, and done it eloquently. He's also made some very good points.

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        • #49
          The saddest part is, when Citisen spells it out so impartially, I truly feel like a dirtbag for my contribution to the said atmosphere.

          Well, at least I'm not ruining any games since I've stopped playing.

          Comment


          • #50
            Originally posted by Citizen Erased
            If anyone else had done this, I would say that they would have been banned permanently.
            Nah. There weren't any server rules broken by most of the offenders -- hence they can't be banned from the servers. Let me assure you that there was no slack granted to anyone in this because of their position in the community.

            Originally posted by daniel
            LOL, how old are you citizen?
            If you're going to judge comments by the age of the author, you're also going to have to discount everything I say.
            Nearly all men can stand adversity -- if you want to test a man’s character, give him power.

            Comment


            • #51
              Originally posted by WildBill
              If you're going to judge comments by the age of the author, you're also going to have to discount everything I say.
              I Don't think that will be necessary Bill. You have plenty of credibility as far as I'm concerned. ...Daniel on the other hand...
              Does this mean I get more credibility than anybody else?

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              • #52
                Well, I play to win. When I'm in a track meet, soccer game, wrestling match or what have you, I'm gonna try my absolute best to win. I have fun doing these events, but I'll also be trying to win.
                Okay, imagine a fat person trying to run cross-country. He does NOT play to win obviously. I'm a very athletic person in cross-country, so I play to win. I think this same reasoning can be applied to video games. Some people are good enough to compete and they love it. There are others who just aren't good enough to compete but they love it also. Let them both play.
                Take chess for example, last Saturday I competed in a tournament and got second place. Well yes, I of course wanted first place but things just didn't turn out well for me. I was tied in the end for first but because my opponent had beaten me in a previous round, I was named second. I still had great fun though, I got $45 for getting 2nd and I got to show off mah skillz ;-)

                Originally posted by Citizen Erased
                Look inside yourselves and you will see that all you want out of the game is to win. It seems to me you want people to 'worship' you and say how brilliant players you are. That is quite sad.
                Doooooooode. It's the glory of it! Just like sports! Just like the olympics! And people love heros! Take Longnames for example, he was like an early Thievery hero.

                I personally love the satisfaction that I head out to do something and I accomplish it.
                I'm a guard. I see a thief. I MUST kill that thief.
                We all know who the good players are. When we ko/kill a good player, it leaves us feeling like we've hit a higher level, like we've improved. Just like beating someone tough in a race.

                Originally posted by Citizen Erased
                the exploits, the conspiring on ts and otherwise, the methods of play
                Competition is good. What's corrupt? What's being said on TS? Is there some kind of evil sick world I don't know about?? O_o;!!
                What methods of play? DM or Obj win, they're both accepted.

                Ah well, that's just what I think at this moment. I hope I've made my points in a friendly manner.

                Comment


                • #53
                  Originally posted by okih-imus
                  Doooooooode. It's the glory of it! Just like sports! Just like the olympics! And people love heros!
                  There were no winners in this situation. Only varying degrees of loserdom. And the bottom rung was set as low as I've ever seen it.

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    True, but at least we can all learn from this mistake.

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Originally posted by LaughingRat
                      There were no winners in this situation. Only varying degrees of loserdom. And the bottom rung was set as low as I've ever seen it.
                      Sad but true, just read this sad missive today. Tarnished quite a few people I would have never thought. But just seems the way this game has been going for a while now. Which is why I hardly ever play anymore.

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                      • #56
                        The comments about the Tournament are fair enough; although this is the first major Thievery tournament ever held that suffered this fate (the total count involving 2 and a half TurfWars and 3 Tournaments of Darkness).

                        But I've said this before - how this comes back to public Thievery for some people here I just don't know. Newsflash: people are competitive in player on player competitions. What am I supposed to be, shocked? The more competitive people joined Guilds, others simply chose to remain in pub - and I have absolutely no problem with that and no lack of respect for people that play the game less seriously than I or others do.

                        BUT. Everybody here has played to win AT SOME LEVEL. If you didn't, you'd sit in thiefspawn cracking yourself repeatedly for 40 minutes. And although CE has made some good points in his initial post, he's also made the mistake of using it as justification for his bagging public Thievery. The reason you left is because you couldn't handle the game in its entirety, CE, and both of us know it. A few things I remember you complaining about: firebolts, guards camping with certain weapons, DMing; you even aliased as "wanker mockers" once (EL OH EL) because you couldn't handle us playing the game as it is and not being restricted by our own mindsets.

                        This game has been pushed by the players, no doubt. The developers could never have forseen what people would discover with the game mechanics, with the maps, and people pushed those limits and found some very interesting things. Other people found ways to counter that. Thievery is an amazingly dynamic yet INCREDIBLY well balanced game. When people with 400 ping can even hope to compete against those with 50 ping in an online game you know you've got a gem.

                        There have been many people to complain about Thievery - you've had your purists ("Lame! Guards should patrol like real guards!"), your straight-out complainers ("DMing is so lame take out the blackjack/broadheads!") and a host of people who were simply UNWILLING to learn how to counter things and just let their mouths run about how certain people, certain tactics, certain situations were "lame". Others learnt. And learnt how to thief gerome, how to guard folly, how to play the game. You're free to leave the game if you don't like it, but don't dare blast the game for a shortcoming that is squarely on your end.

                        Honestly guys, from day one Thievery has been an online game where - gasp - people compete against each other to win. All this thread acts as is a soapbox for people that haven't played pub regularly for over 6 months to come and have a stab at the "elite" players, like it's somehow a crime to have learnt how to play the game well. And if this Tournament proved anything, it's that the best players clearly hold back in the public arena from the hardcore exploits and the game ruining plays. Because we don't get enjoyment out of completely slamming opponents using game bugs.

                        The Mockers themselves have received a number of genuine apologies from players as a result of the events of this tournament. We're over it. I find it rather amusing that other people are using this to bag public (read: unrelated) Thievery. If you don't like the game, don't play the game. But please, don't bag the players of this game who are a majority of good people because you don't want to play the game as the game is, and you need to invent rules and make value judgements on what is "lame" and what isn't, when 99% of tactics are counterable if you are willing to learn.

                        edit

                        Originally posted by LaughingRat
                        There were no winners in this situation. Only varying degrees of loserdom. And the bottom rung was set as low as I've ever seen it.
                        Okih's comment was about pub, anyway - but if you do want to discuss the Tournament, I didn't think it was a complete write-off. We played some good, intense matches at a high level. The videos of Flats/Stronghold Mockers v Forsaken are on www.thievery-customs.com for those who haven't seen them.
                        Last edited by Shug; 3rd May 2005, 01:01 AM.
                        Nightmaster,
                        .:Mockers Thievery Guild:.
                        - "until the cat is skinned"

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Originally posted by Biohazard
                          I'm going to throw my 2 cents into this discussion even though I wasn't directly involved.

                          As you all know I don't really play Thievery anymore, but I still show up every once in a while. The reason for this is not because I don't enjoy playing the game, but rather the community that has become all about winning at all costs as apparent here. Call me whatever names you want to label me with, but I'm not willing to use exploits to win a game. I don't demand that others don't use them either, I just stop playing with them. Tournament play has become a matter of what team is more ruthless to take the crown by using underhanded tricks and the map exploits that would generally be considered cheating in public servers. Thieves don't even bother with objectives, just kill all the guards (dev problem imo). The fun that existed in TUT has left, leaving only a handful of players dedicated to being better than their peers. This is just sad.

                          I've been playing the last two weeks in the servers under aliases, and don't think I want to play on public servers anymore. If someone (LM) is hosting a private server with people that want to play to have fun, I'm game. For those of you who are still only interested in getting the win, enjoy TUT. You've taken what originally was the friendliest community on the net and turned it into another Counter-Strike, where winning is everything.
                          Since we let you "throw my 2 cents into this discussion" I’m going to throw mine too if you don’t mind.

                          I know its water under the bridge but you are the main reason why I left this community. Refusing to put back a match we had agree to put back 2 times for your team. Refusing to play a fair match 2 on 2 since we had two players MIA. No, the WIN was more important, well you got the win but no match where played " how fun is that ? "
                          So when you say "the community that has become all about winning at all costs as apparent here." You started this trend yourself way before anyone else so don’t be an hypocrite please.
                          Other than that I must say I agree with you, very very good points. Too bad that only half of what you said makes sense.

                          [Mordinated unwarranted personal attack]


                          Edit : fuck it with thos admins you cant even state a simple fact anymore and is was not even rude. So fuck it i'm not missing any of you, bitching all the time.
                          So im reposting what i was saying abot machine in a rude way now :
                          Machine told me once to get a fucking life only because i was playing TUT alot, who need one now ?
                          Him and everyone on this forum,
                          special thkz to the admins.
                          Last edited by DhaThief; 4th May 2005, 02:02 AM.
                          [KYO] - Knock You Out

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                          • #58
                            Originally posted by Citizen Erased
                            This just strengthened my views on this 'community'.
                            Look inside yourselves and you will see that all you want out of the game is to win. It seems to me you want people to 'worship' you and say how brilliant players you are. That is quite sad.
                            Thievery has gone so far downhill that now, it appears to have started digging.
                            I will most probably get insulted now in some way, or merely discredited. Fair enough, I wouldn't expect any less. Just try to grow up and stuff really. I don't care what you think of me, so say what you like.
                            If you think that the players of TUT are a 'community' (implying you are skeptical of the use of that term for 'us') and you have left said 'community', and you don't care what we think of you, why should we take any of your comments even half-seriously (even though you may have made some valid points?). Like any other community, online or otherwise, there are those who break rules, those who stick to them, and the rest of us mortals somewhere in between. It does not make us any less of a community, just a diverse one like any other. Given how easy it is to cheat online these days, we have a remarkably good bunch of people, who for the most part (despite their alleged lust to win at all costs) do the right thing.

                            I think you have made it pretty clear that you don't want to be a part of our community. Good. Go (again)
                            Yenz: "It's only murder if they say stop"
                            Mono's wife: "What if they are mute?"
                            Yenz: "There are internationally recognized hand signals for 'stop killing me you bastard!'"

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              Okay, time to reiterate Mode's post regarding forum rules. DhaThief, I've edited your post to remove an unwarranted personal attack. This whole thread is running fairly tense, so watch yourselves people, 'cause I sure am
                              Mordengaard - Tester/Mapper/Voice Actor/Nitpick/Coder

                              "Criminal: A person with predatory instincts who has not sufficient capital to form a corporation."
                              :: Howard Scott

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                lol thanks Mord.

                                I'll like to comment on CE's initial post.
                                An interesting read and good points CE. However I disagree with parts of it. Competitive play just ‘does it’ for some people and doesn't ‘do it’ for others. It’s not for everyone.
                                When this tournament started up I'm sure most participants were as eager to win it with their team as I was. Most people taking part like to win, this is pretty straightforward; the elation of winning is satisfying and fun. That being said, it doesn’t mean that its the only source of enjoyment to be had from a game.
                                In fact, although disappointing, Mocker's first move loss to Mutants on Breakout was still a good experience in many respects. Generally, the Mockers applauded the interest taken by its members in the match, the effort of those that played and their opponents for beating them. We took an opportunity to try to improve tactics and game play.

                                We like to win, true. However we do appreciate that winning isn't everything and I urge you to consider these views and perhaps understand the motivations behind those who you currently have a dim view of.
                                I firmly believe that those involved in this unfortunate incident initially, at least, held the best of intentions.

                                And in a fittingly wankerish note:
                                Don't tar everyone with the same brush, this 'community' may have its problems, but this community is still made up of individuals.
                                .: Daymaster - Mockers Thievery Guild :.

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