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**Grank** · 25 Feb 2003, 01:50 PM

From my experience any body of people (ie Server Admins) with any power need to be completely transparent to everyone. If you aren't then people cry foul. If you are then you still run into problems. Much like what has happened with TUF.

I like your idea to some extent but I feel its covered by the Turf Wars rules. Every guild has one vote on matters that affect the Turf Wars.

I'd like you to outline, if you could, what kind of matters you invision this body handling. Could you come up with some hypothetical situations so I can get a better feel for what you have in mind? Then I'll cast my final vote.

**Biohazard** · 25 Feb 2003, 02:09 PM

I vote no.

These kind of matters should be taken care of by the League Administrators. Since the only real league admin is LR, then he is in charge. But I will say this, every decision has had a vote by each guildmaster. So, lets let things be and not make it any more complicated/secretive than it already is.

**Kiech Bepho** · 25 Feb 2003, 02:16 PM

Ok, first, we need to have a REASON to form the DARK COUNCIL:

1. Despite the fact that Guild TuF did not break any rules of TurfWars, and met all requirements agreed upon to join, they have now been denied by many other guilds.

2. In hopes that TuF could resolve this issue without surrendering its member list, they did not feel safe comming forth and discussing this topic right away.

3. We still have no forseeable solution to this problem, and given the nature and origins of this game, will surely have more issues such as this in the future, but still NO guidelines to follow and resolve grievences.

Those are the sole reasons, I am sure you can come up with others. The next question is, what will be the RESPONSIBILITES of this DARK COUNCIL?

1. To make standard laws which will determine entry into the DARK COUNCIL and any pubilc tournament. Once a guild has been approved for ONE tournament, they are eligible for ALL tournaments, until they are found guilty of the rules set forth by the DARK COUNCIL and due process has been performed.

2. Grievence policy and procedure must be made. A guild that takes issue with another will present it to the DARK COUNCIL to have thier dispute moderated. Any sensitive information such as IP's or REAL NAMES will be withheld from pubilc view to allow the basic anonomus freedom we enjoy to keep our RL private. Any investigations to determine such information will only be allowed by procedure set forth by the DARK COUNCIL.

Those are the BASIC responsibilites of the DARK COUNCIL.

Are you still with me? Should I go on about what else they COULD do or what type of govenment it would be?

Kiech

**Biohazard** · 25 Feb 2003, 02:24 PM

1. Despite the fact that Guild TuF did not break any rules of TurfWars, and met all requirements agreed upon to join, they have now been denied by many other guilds.

We were contacted by LR asking what we felt about TuF. While there was no written rule, I think you understand that we don't like the idea that a guild could be giving away all of our secrets. It's not a comforatable feeling.

3. We still have no forseeable solution to this problem, and given the nature and origins of this game, will surely have more issues such as this in the future, but still NO guidelines to follow and resolve grievences.

We do have a solution to this problem that seems to be fair to all sides. TuF comes forward and becomes a guild like all the rest of us. I would then love to play against them. LR has a written set of rules that act as a guideling. We should follow them and make ammendments when needed.

I just don't see the problem with how this system is working now. No guildmaster has yet to come forth and complain about it.

BTW, are you even in a guild?

**Aggamemnon** · 25 Feb 2003, 02:34 PM

This was a 1st time occurance on two counts, the turf wars system is still in some revision (more matches we have the more revised they get) and All the registerd guilds had a say/vote/opinion granted to them, like i stated in the other thread i Don't think we need another set of "Admins".

This is MY view not a guild one.
I thought we would be able to leave our tags off in certain places but it seems most prefer to keep us in a set area with all the others we share a guild with.
Granted this is the board for the guilds but when asking the community what they think it should be Tags off imo.
Here (unless stated) i see all amins only in the admin thread, and only (usually) guild matters in its thread, anything in public/general should deff be tags off.

**Kiech Bepho** · 25 Feb 2003, 02:36 PM

Sorry for the redness, btw, it was the easiest way to respond to your points.

Originally posted by Biohazard

1. Despite the fact that Guild TuF did not break any rules of TurfWars, and met all requirements agreed upon to join, they have now been denied by many other guilds.

We were contacted by LR asking what we felt about TuF. While there was no written rule, I think you understand that we don't like the idea that a guild could be giving away all of our secrets. It's not a comforatable feeling.

That's the point. A 'feeling' should have nothing to do with letting a guild play or not. And might I note, LR is not the ruler of the world. He is respected by many and provides a great service to this game, but the decisions are not only his to make. There ARE other servers and there WILL be other tournaments in the future that LR has no direct control over.

3. We still have no forseeable solution to this problem, and given the nature and origins of this game, will surely have more issues such as this in the future, but still NO guidelines to follow and resolve grievences.

We do have a solution to this problem that seems to be fair to all sides. TuF comes forward and becomes a guild like all the rest of us. I would then love to play against them. LR has a written set of rules that act as a guideling. We should follow them and make ammendments when needed.

But the solution is/(was, dont want to speak for them) NOT acceptable to all parties involved, DESPITE the fact that they have broken no rule. And as they disagree to the WAY this problem was addressed and their apparent FEAR to come forward for civilized discussion is a MAJOR problem IMHO. The lines of communication should always be open if a dispute such as this arises again. A DARK COUNCIL will ensure that.

I just don't see the problem with how this system is working now. No guildmaster has yet to come forth and complain about it.

BTW, are you even in a guild?

I think Chainsaws was complaining...isn't he a guildmaster?

Your last question is of little relevacne to this point. I am a member of TUT that is now looking for a guild to join. Why should I be denied something that is relevant to me?

Kiech

**LaughingRat** · 25 Feb 2003, 02:59 PM

I stated my opinion on this before, but I'll restate it here. I think that a secretive council of people making these decisions is a bad idea. I think matters of public importance need to be made available to the public. We've already seen what happens when we have a secretive organization in our midst. How much worse would it be if such an organization has actual POWER over how things are run?

If the community decides this is what's needed, I'll set up the forum for it. I could also suggest that the forum be viewable by everyone, but only the members could post. That way, it at least has a degree of openness and accountability.

Abstaining from voting, for now.

**Kiech Bepho** · 25 Feb 2003, 03:00 PM

Ok, I see that I may have skipped over 1 important point. Let me make it now. TuF was accepted into TurfWars per the rules. The other participating guilds then decided that TuF was not an acceptable guild to play with. We heard a lot of 'I didn't know about that' and whatnot. With this system, all the guilds will decide BEFOREHAND if a guild is acceptable or not, and will be quite aware if the possiblity for a problem is present.

Let me ask you all, what would have happened if Grank DIDN'T post the message that started this whole thing? I'll tell you. You would have all gone along your merry way possibly never being the wiser. So what does this say? RULES AREN'T PERFECT. And the way this has gone on is crazy.

So how can you prevent a guild that WILL do what TuF could have done from joining a tournament, and be able to resolve the issue? Form a council.

Kiech

**Kiech Bepho** · 25 Feb 2003, 03:06 PM

Originally posted by LaughingRat

I stated my opinion on this before, but I'll restate it here. I think that a secretive council of people making these decisions is a bad idea. I think matters of public importance need to be made available to the public. We've already seen what happens when we have a secretive organization in our midst. How much worse would it be if such an organization has actual POWER over how things are run?

If the community decides this is what's needed, I'll set up the forum for it. I could also suggest that the forum be viewable by everyone, but only the members could post. That way, it at least has a degree of openness and accountability.

Abstaining from voting, for now.

I suggest the secure part to protect others RL information only. Everything else SHOULD be public, as it could affect anyone who plays TUT. If you are uncomfortable with that, then perhaps with the procedure of investigation will negate my concern and there will be no qualms about posting that sort of information.

Kiech

**Kiech Bepho** · 25 Feb 2003, 03:58 PM

Oh...and if you just don't like the fact that a form of govenment would exist, you could make more rules and pretend we aren't just doing the same thing. Important is a grievence system, and rules for an acceptable guild - no matter how limited. Don't let your 'feelings' get in the way of what should be done.

Kiech

**Biohazard** · 25 Feb 2003, 04:04 PM

You misunderstand me when I say feeling.

When I say uncomforatable feeling, I mean I'm upset. I'm upset that somebody has betrayed me and TCO.

And I have no idea what you're talking about when you say feelings shouldn't run the system. I haven't really said that, so I'm not sure where that came from.

**MrEricSir** · 25 Feb 2003, 04:07 PM

No. Nobody should control the guilds. This would give people power for no reason, and when people get into positions of power they tend to do really stupid shit.

**Lurox** · 25 Feb 2003, 04:29 PM

Thwark, mind if I throw in that NERDS pic?

(that's for the name "dark" coucil, btw. No.)

**Kiech Bepho** · 25 Feb 2003, 04:33 PM

Originally posted by MrEricSir

No. Nobody should control the guilds. This would give people power for no reason, and when people get into positions of power they tend to do really stupid shit.

Then take the second option. Don't form a Council. But I still think rules to settle greivences should be thought about along with what type of guilds are acceptable to you. You stated yourself that you would NOT play TuF in TurfWars, despite the fact that they broke no rules. I have to wonder what other guilds are going to get kicked out of tournaments before they get a chance to play because someone doesn't like what they might do. Defined rules and a Council would solve that IMHO. BTW, the Council doesn't have to be lead by anyone. Or it could be lead by a neutral party. None of that has been thought out yet.

BioHazard: I understand what you are saying. You felt upset and betrayed. Those are feelings. You claim they had no effect on you. Yet you had no solid evidence of this happening. No rules were broken. You had no issues with the fact that TuF wasn't going to publish their member list. And this was flagged as only a 'possibility'. Logic was involved, certainly, but the facts weren't. This campaign was fueled by emotion.

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